EPPRA Bailout Bill Advances

According to an email blast from the Road Carriers 707 Pension Fund on Thursday..

the House Ways and Means Committee reported out (passed) the Butch Lewis Emergency Pension Plan Relief Act with only technical amendments. The Bill now moves onto the Budget Committee and the Rules Committee. It is expected to move through these Committees without incident and onto a vote on the House floor. As we reported yesterday this Bill is part of a larger Covid Relief Bill expected to be voted on in mid March in the Senate after House passage.

There was a lot of discussion about workers deserving a bailout as they did nothing wrong (trusting politicians, actuaries, and union heads notwithstanding) but what struck me was the perspicacity of Congressman Adrian Smith (R-Nebraska):

More remarks on EPPRA at the hearing:

91 responses to this post.

  1. I listened to the whole thing. Yep here comes a $6 trillion debt load for taxpayers. This was the thin edge of the wedge, wait til they get rolling on public servant bailouts.

    Reply

    • Posted by Tough Love on February 14, 2021 at 2:03 pm

      I can see it coming ….. from the PUBLIC Sector workers/retirees …..”WE did nothing wrong”. yada yada yada

      All while THEY, in conjunction with their Unions, COLLUDED with our Elected Officials to grant pensions & benefits that by every reasonable metric are (wait for it) ……………….. LUDICROUSLY EXCESSIVE.

      Rather than bailing them out (meaning gifting them Taxpayer funds of sufficient magnitude to pay all that was “promised”), the level of pension benefits and/or the retirement ages should be RESET to what the likely would have been in the absence of that collusion………. assuredly no more than HALF they have been granted, and perhaps 1/4 for Safety workers when factoring their absurdly young (and hence EXTREMELY costly) retirement ages.

      Reply

    • What else can you see?

      Which public workers/retirees do you see asking for a bailout? Would that be the states with the larger pensions, or the states which have consistently, knowingly, intentionally, underfunded their pensions for decades?

      Virtually all states could benefit from reform. Relatively few need or want a bailout.

      Reply

      • Posted by Rex the Wonder Dog!🐶🐶🐶🐾🐾🐾 on February 14, 2021 at 9:50 pm

        Relatively few need or want a bailout.
        Will you just STFU with your bumbling propaganda public employee “talking points”, for ponce in your life Dougieeeeee….
        “Biden’s bailout proposals, using taxpayer dollars from across the country, would rescue Illinois’ floundering government pension systems and encourage Springfield Democrats to keep increasing the payouts to retired government employees living the good life at taxpayer expense.

        There are 148,654 Illinois government pensioners who will receive more than a million dollars in pension payments over a normal lifetime. That only represents the six statewide pension funds. There are tens of thousands more government pension millionaires in the Chicago pension funds and the hundreds of local police and fire pension funds.

        The average pensioner gets $1.5 million in lifetime pension payments, and for every $1 he or she deposits to their own pensions, taxpayers are forced to pay $4.74. Government employees don’t have to work very long to qualify for that $1.5 million; the average number of years employed is only 20.1, and the average age of retirement is about 61.
        https://madisonrecord.com/stories/572704630-no-taxpayer-state-bailouts-for-incompetence-and-corruption

        Reply

  2. Posted by Tough Love on February 14, 2021 at 2:30 pm

    Yes, Public Sector pensions ARE LUDICROUSLY EXCESSIVE ……… see a DEMONSTRATION of that below (from my recent response to comment from Stephen Douglas):
    ———————————-

    Quoting Stephen Douglas ……………

    “We’re “still waiting” for convincing evidence of “how excessive, how unjustified, how unfair to Taxpayers, and how unaffordable these pensions (AND benefits) have become.”

    I’ve posted such many times, but let’s just do it again for the infamous 3%@50 COLA-increased CA Safety-worker pension Plan under which MANY MANY CA Safety workers are STILL accruing this LUDICROUSLY EXCESSIVE pension benefit ………… and will continue to do so for perhaps 20 MORE years.

    Using Ed Ring’s “Pension Analysis Model” Excel Spreadsheet that can be found (in Blue) in the 1-st sentence of the 3-rd paragraph of THIS link (after removing the leading and ending “#” symbols):

    #https://californiapolicycenter.org/a-pension-analysis-tool-for-everyone/#

    Use Sheet1 and hit “enable editing” at the Top of the Page

    Enter the following spreadsheet inputs (in the Yellow-Highlighted cells. Don’t touch the Non-Yellow cells as they are Formula-Driven Cells, as opposed to Non-formula Input Cells):

    Age Begin working ………. 25
    Age at Retirement ……….. 55
    Life Expectancy …………….85
    % COLA Growth/Yr ……….2%
    % Merit Growth/Yr ………….3% (included impact of periodic promotions)
    Pension formula/Yr …………3%
    Fund Return % ………………4%
    pension COLA %…………….2%
    Final Salary ……………………$100,000 (but doesn’t matter. ANY salary gives the same result because everything is relational)

    Notice that I haven’t (YET) given you an input for the % of Salary to pension (cell D:8), because THIS is the cell that you want to SOLVE FOR . The result tells you the level annual total (employee + Taxpayer) pension contribution expressed as a %-of-pay that is required to fully fund the worker’s pension over his/her working career (i.e., by the year he/she retires). The INPUT for this cell (D:8) for which the Green-Highlighted cell becomes zero, is 70.9%.

    The goal of the Spreadsheet is to get the Green-Highlighted cell to zero, which means that all of the pension’s accumulated assets are exactly exhausted at the time the workers dies.

    You can test things by changing any of the above YELLOW-Highlighted Cells (ONLY). For example, if you ONLY changed the Life Expectancy to say 80, the GREEN-Highlighted Cell goes to $683,095, meaning that there is THAT amount of money (associated with THIS one person’s pension) REMAINING at the time he is expected to dies (now age 80). What you want to do here is figure out what input value (different than the 70.9% now in cell D:8) will get that Green-Highlighted cell back to zero. The answer is 61.7%. You can determine that by trial and error (just keep testing input values for cell D:8 …. in the same direction ….. as the Green-Highlighted cell gets closer and closer to zero), or MUCH quicker using Excel’s “Goal Seek” function found under the “Data” and then “What If Analysis” tabs.
    ————–
    Back to the analysis, the evidence, and the demonstration …………….

    The above Spreadsheet shows that with my above-noted Inputs, a level annual TOTAL Employee + Taxpayer contribution of 70.9% is necessary just to fully fund the NORMAL COST (i.e., with nothing allocated towards amortizing existing underfunding) of the 30 year worker with CA’s COLA-increased 3%@50 pension. Assuming the employee contributes 10% of pay annually, that leaves the remaining 60.9% of pay as the Taxpayer’s annual contribution…………… over 15 TIMES greater than the 4%-of-pay into a 401K Plan that is all most Private Sector workers get in retirement Security from their employers today.

    Does that sound reasonable, justifiable, and fair to Taxpayers, or is it “ludicrously excessive” ?

    Reply

    • Posted by Tough Love on February 14, 2021 at 4:57 pm

      Since this Blog focuses on NJ, I re-ran the above, changing the inputs to reflect the most common point at which NJ Police Officers retire …… after 25 years:

      Excel spreadsheet Inputs in yellow cells:

      Age Begin working ………. 25
      Age at Retirement ……….. 50
      Life Expectancy …………….85
      % COLA Growth/Yr ……….2%
      % Merit Growth/Yr ………….3% (included impact of periodic promotions)
      Pension formula/Yr …………2.6% (reflects the 65%-of-pay pension after 25 years)
      Fund Return % ………………4%
      pension COLA %…………….0% (assumes the suspended COLAs NEVER return)
      Final Salary ……………………$100,000 (but doesn’t matter. ANY salary gives the same result because everything is relational)

      Spreadsheet Cell (D:8) tells you the level annual total (employee + Taxpayer) pension contribution (expressed as a %-of-pay) that is required to fully fund the worker’s pension over his/her working career (i.e., by the year he/she retires). The INPUT for this cell (D:8) for which the Green-Highlighted cell becomes zero, is 50.4%.

      If we subtract the 10% of pay pension contributions from the Officers, that still leaves NJ’s Taxpayers contributing a level annual 40.4%-of-pay to fully fund (just the NORMAL COST of) their pensions ……….. over 10 TIMES greater than the 4%-of-pay into a 401K Plan that is all most Private Sector workers get in retirement Security from their employers today.

      So again, (even though smaller that the 15 times required in the even crazier State of CA) does that sound reasonable, justifiable, and fair to Taxpayers, or is it “ludicrously excessive” ?

      Reply

      • Posted by Tough Love on February 14, 2021 at 8:18 pm

        Stephen,

        When I use someone ELSE’S (Ed Ring in this case) Spreadsheet (although I verified it’s accuracy) so “someone” who perennially disagrees can’t claim I created a phony/incorrect/GIGO calculation …………

        When I show ALL spreadsheet INPUTS, and show how to use the spreadsheet to test for the impact of other inputs of the READER’S choice, so nothing his hidden from “someone” who perennially disagrees can’t claim “garbage-in, garbage-out” ………..

        When I add no element of decision-making or “reasoning” (just a strait-forward spreadsheet calculation), so “someone” who perennially disagrees can’t claim that it’s “spacious” ………….

        When I do all the above, and “someone” who has previously admitted that they know little to nothing about computer spreadsheets, STILL finds the results of such “spacious” ……………

        WHAT are we to make of that person’s intellect, honestly, ability (knowledge and know-how), and BIAS ?
        ———————————————–

        Stephen, If you believe something in my above demonstration is “spacious”, state exactly what it is …………. or a E likes to say, STFU.

        Reply

        • 😉

          Reply

        • Posted by Rex the Wonder Dog!🐶🐶🐶🐾🐾🐾 on February 15, 2021 at 10:02 pm

          Stephen, If you believe something in my above demonstration is “spacious”, state exactly what it is …………. or a E likes to say, STFU.
          The only thing “spacious” in Dougieeee’s world is the massive air space in between his ears… it is very “spacious” in there where Dougieee is supposed to have a functioning brain 😎

          Reply

      • 🔉spe·cious
        /ˈspēSHəs/

        adjective

        superficially plausible, but actually wrong.

        1. Once again, you are proving what is already common knowledge, that for public workers, pensions and benefits are a greater part of compensation than for private workers.

        2. More so for safety workers. That is unlikely to change.

        3. 40.4%-of-pay the taxpayers contribute is 10 TIMES greater than the 4%-of-pay into a 401K Plan that is all most Private Sector workers get in retirement Security from their employers today… but “only” 4 times the 401K + 6.2 percent OASDI contribution.

        4. “Final Salary ……………………$100,000 (but doesn’t matter…)

        Of course it matters. In the real world, compensation is wages plus benefits. Typically, if an employer offers a lower pension, he will pay a higher salary in lieu. Or vice versa.

        (CalPERS report: pay hike to offset pension cuts? Calpensions, 5 May, 2014.)

        When California pensions were reduced from 3%@50 to 2.7%@57 the employer could compensate for “lower” pensions by increasing wages… Deferred compensation, higher pensions to compensate for lower wages, and vice versa. It’s tautological. Ironically, the higher wages also results in… wait for it… (Math: 90% of $80,000 is the same thing as 80% of $90,000). Heads I win, tails you lose

        The market will prevail. If there is a police shortage, and there is, wages will increase. And pensions will increase concomitantly.

        Reply

        • Posted by Tough Love on February 14, 2021 at 11:39 pm

          Responding ……………

          (1) & (2) You asked for a DEMONSTRATION on PENSIONS.. You got it. AND no, the excess in their pensions & benefits is WAY WAY more than just enough to offset lower “wages’ (where that exists) Per Mary Pat Campbell ……………..

          “. If you want to make the case that public sector employees have low salaries compared to similar private sector workers, you have to support that. The pension and health benefits (pre- and post-retirement) more than swamp any “underpaid” aspect, even if they were underpaid salary-wise.”

          (3) Really? Go ahead, tell me that NJ Police “wages” ALONE aren’t considerably MORE than 6.2% above the wages of comparably educated, experienced, skilled, and knowledgeable Private Sector workers That 6.2% (employer-paid -for share of SS) is already baked into their wages. .Jeese, El Gaupo’s BASE “wages” are about $155K.

          (4) Quoting ………….. ““Final Salary ……………………$100,000 (but doesn’t matter…). Of course it matters.”

          The Context of the Inputted “Final Salary” NOT mattering was in changing the result in the spreadsheet cell (D:8). Did you even look at it, try it, understand it?

          And YES, as I stated, ……………. the Inputted Final Salary DOESN’T matter
          —————
          And later, quoting ……………

          “When California pensions were reduced from 3%@50 to 2.7%@57 the employer could compensate for “lower” pensions by increasing wages… Deferred compensation, higher pensions to compensate for lower wages, and vice versa. ”

          Do you thing we’re THAT stupid ? What the politicians “say” has nothing to do with reality. What/where was the need to maintain “Total Compensation” levels (increase wages to offset a VERY modestly lowered pension) when that “total compensation” was VERY clearly excessive ?

          Reply

        • ” You asked for a DEMONSTRATION on PENSIONS..”

          I don’t think so.

          “Do you thing we’re THAT stupid ?”

          Rhetorical question? I thing so.

          “…when that “total compensation” was VERY clearly excessive ?”

          You started years ago with the assumption that public workers are overpaid, and every argument circles back to that unsupported assumption.

          Happy V.D.

          Reply

          • Posted by Tough Love on February 15, 2021 at 2:08 am

            Ok Stephen, lets run with that ………….

            Per my above 3%@50 pensioned CA Police Officer pension-generosity demonstration ……… wherein the Taxpayer’s share of the NORMAL COST of their pensions is 15 TIMES the 4% that is all most Private Sector workers get from their employers.

            Then add in the MUCH MUCH greater value of the CA Police Officer’s retiree healthcare benefits.

            And offset CA Police Officer wage difference (+ or -) against those of comparably educated ,experienced, skilled, and knowledgeable Private Sector workers.

            So………… do you REALLY believe the net result ………. the Total Compensation of that CA Police Officer is NOT much much greater than that of that of the comparably-situated Private Sector worker?
            ——————–

            P.S. I expect you to say say yes………. because we know what you are.

            Reply

          • Posted by Tough Love on February 15, 2021 at 2:50 am

            Stephen Douglas quoting me and then responding . ………….

            “” You asked for a DEMONSTRATION on PENSIONS..”

            I don’t think so. ”
            ———————————–

            Really ???

            Your exact words were ………………..

            ““We’re “still waiting” for convincing evidence of “how excessive, how unjustified, how unfair to Taxpayers, and how unaffordable these pensions (AND benefits) have become.””

            Reply

          • And your answer was…
            ” I’ve posted such many times, but let’s just do it again for the infamous 3%@50 COLA-increased CA Safety-worker pension Plan…”

            Not an answer.

            Specious.

            Specious now and specious every “such many times” you’ve posted it before. I did not ask for a ” DEMONSTRATION on PENSIONS..”

            We have already stipulated to the fact, long ago and often, that public pensions are larger than private. Any more demonstrations are moot. The fact that they are “larger” does not logically prove that they are excessive. Let alone LUDICROUSLY so. So please stop with the damn demonstrations. Let’s just …not… do it again.

            Reply

          • Posted by Tough Love on February 15, 2021 at 9:38 am

            No Stephen,

            It was my detailed Excel-based DEMONSTRATION of CA Police Officer’s LUDICROUSLY EXCESSIVE pension generosity level (requiring 15 times MORE than what comparably situated Private Sector workers get in retirement security from their employers) that answered your request for …………. ” evidence of “how excessive, how unjustified, how unfair to Taxpayers, and how unaffordable these pensions (AND benefits) have become.”
            —————-

            An clearly, I and Mary pat Campbell agree that because the Public Sector Pension & Benefit advantage FAR exceeds any lower Public Sector wages, Public Sector “Total Compensation” (wages + pensions + benefits) also exceeds that of Private Sector workers.

            In actuary Many Pat Campbell’s words ……………..

            “If you want to make the case that public sector employees have low salaries compared to similar private sector workers, you have to support that. The pension and health benefits (pre- and post-retirement) more than swamp any “underpaid” aspect, even if they were underpaid salary-wise.”

            Reply

        • Posted by Rex the Wonder Dog!🐶🐶🐶🐾🐾🐾 on February 15, 2021 at 10:44 pm

          If there is a police shortage, and there is, wages will increase.
          STFU You Progressive Surrender Money … There will NEVER, EVER be a “police shortage”, or ANY other kind ofj “shortage” for GED jobs compensates $200K in base salary and fringes; and $300K-$500K with overtime… F’ing A, you are a tool Dougieeeeee….

          Reply

          • For that salary maybe not, but there certainly are many places in both rural America and shithole cities they pay far less than what you quote and are most certainly having trouble recruiting and retaining officers. Sometimes it’s financial other times it horrible working conditions like Seattle and Portland. Look at the numbers. Just because you say GED cops making $200,000 base salary doesn’t make it so. You’re simply biased like TL and jealous. And like her, you think that you are way smarter than you are. And you also lie regularly, who really thinks that you used to work out with Alzado, anyone on here? At best you ran into one time.
            You’re a nobody Rex. Just like the rest of us on here.
            To be sure though, TL with her character flaws is MUCH smarter than you are. After all she voted for the winner this time around 🙄

            Reply

          • Posted by Rex the Wonder Dog!🐶🐶🐶🐾🐾🐾 on February 18, 2021 at 3:50 pm

            Just because you say GED cops making $200,000 base salary doesn’t make it so. You’re simply biased like TL and jealous. And like her, you think that you are way smarter than you are. And you also lie regularly, who really thinks that you used to work out with Alzado, anyone on here? At best you ran into one time.
            You’re a nobody Rex.

            LOL… OK GED Wonder, whatever you say 🐶🐶🐶
            .
            BTW Baby Einstein, I NEVER said I ” … used to work out with Lyle Alzado”. I said he trained at the same gym. I was there, in the gym working out, many times when he was working out. THAT is what I said, so STFU Mini Mouse…..😎

            Reply

      • “WHAT are we to make of that person’s intellect, honestly, ability (knowledge and know-how), and BIAS ?”

        What indeed.

        Reply

  3. Stipulated; public pensions are larger than private.

    Evidence; actual empirical data has shown conclusively that, even with the larger pensions and benefits, many public workers still earn a total compensation less than, or equal to, equivalent private sector workers. How many? That is debatable, fair game for discussion and research. Do not cut their pensions. There is no moral or pragmatic reason to do so.

    Evidence has also shown conclusively that many public workers earn (much) more than the private sector, primarily due to the floor on compensation. You say there is no justification to pay public workers more for the same job. You call that excessive (ludicrously). I say, Public Policy Decision… Every state in the U.S and most developed countries disagrees with you.

    That is where “We’re “still waiting” for convincing evidence…”

    You say safety workers pensions are ludicrously excessive. I say safety workers pensions are greater …because… of earlier retirement. Another almost universal (worldwide)… Public Policy Decision. The ball is in your court. Prove the world wrong. Not with a droll mathematical demonstration, but with a convincing rebuke of centuries of precedents.

    GO!

    Reply

    • Posted by Tough Love on February 15, 2021 at 10:05 am

      Quoting ……………

      “Evidence; actual empirical data has shown conclusively that, even with the larger pensions and benefits, many public workers still earn a total compensation less than, or equal to, equivalent private sector workers. How many? That is debatable, fair game for discussion and research. Do not cut their pensions. There is no moral or pragmatic reason to do so. ”

      Many? Could be, but the evidence also shows that the amount of the LESS compensation of those “many”, is materially EXCEEDED by the GREATER compensation of what likely is far greater number of Public Sector workers.

      Such that in total for ALL of those Public Sector workers combined (the ones who make less, more, and the same), the net result (per Figure #6 of Dr. Andrew Biggs Public/Private Sector compensation study) is that while 8 States show an average Public Sector Total Compensation DISADVANTAGE of about 3%-of-pay, the other 42 States show a average Public Sector Total Compensation ADVANTAGE of about 12% of pay ……….. with our home States of CA and NJ showing a 23%-of=pay Public Sector Total Compensation ADVANTAGE.
      —————————————-

      Quoting ………………..

      “Evidence has also shown conclusively that many public workers earn (much) more than the private sector, primarily due to the floor on compensation. You say there is no justification to pay public workers more for the same job. You call that excessive (ludicrously). I say, Public Policy Decision.

      Given your extreme bias, and love for everything “Union” and “Public Sector”, I’m not AT ALL surprised by your position. How convenient when you have no LEGITIMATE justification.
      ——————————————-

      Quoting …………….

      “You say safety workers pensions are ludicrously excessive. I say safety workers pensions are greater …because… of earlier retirement. ”

      Yes, Police pensions ARE greater “because of early retirement”, that just about doubling the value of the SAME pension formula if first payable at the ages at which Private Sector DB pension are typically payable.

      But Police pensions are ALSO much greater due to MUCH MUCH richer pension FORMULAS. Currently accruing Final Average Salary DB pensions (the type granted in the Public Sector) in the the Private Sector are rare today, but even the better ones of the past typically included a pension formula HALF as generous as that granted CA’s Police Officers.

      And Private Sector 401K Plan contributions that have replaced DB pensions in the Private Sector are half-again (or more) lower in value. Put all of those halves and halves and halves+ together, and that’s why the Taxpayer contribution requirement to fully fund (just the NORMAL COST of) Police pensions over their working career is TYPICALLY 10 to 15 TIMES greater than what Private Sector workers get in retirement security contributions from their employers.

      Reply

    • Déjà pu. Your efforts are wasted here. Its not my policy. I couldn’t change it if I wanted to. Go forth and tell the world they have all been doing it wrong forever.

      Reply

      • Posted by Tough Love on February 15, 2021 at 12:29 pm

        You’re correct. It’s not YOUR policy (though clearly one you agree with and approve of).

        It’s the Policy chosen by Elected Officials BEHOLDEN to the Public Sector Unions in exchange for their Election support and Campaign contributions ….. while betraying the Taxpayers who are forced to pay for it.

        Reply

      • Do you know what “worldwide” means?
        Or “decades of precedents” (as in, before unions)?
        Union Derangement Syndrome is strong in you.

        Reply

        • Posted by Tough Love on February 15, 2021 at 1:40 pm

          I don’t pay taxes “worldwide”.

          My NJ taxes (and Utility bills …. due to the absurdly excessive amount that our Utility companies pay the Police on their construction-site gigs) are higher than they need to be partly because of NJ’s LUDICROUS EXCESSIVE Public Sector pension and Benefits.

          The mentality and intellect of a light-bulb-changer ……….. “is strong in you”.

          Reply

          • Posted by Rex the Wonder Dog!🐶🐶🐶🐾🐾🐾 on February 15, 2021 at 10:09 pm

            The mentality and intellect of a light-bulb-changer ……….. “is strong in you”.
            Don’t give the Knucklehead that much credit TL………….

            Reply

          • Posted by Tough Love on February 16, 2021 at 2:47 am

            Hey Rex ……….. which one is Stephen ?

            Reply

          • Oh stop kissing his ass TL. He thinks you’re a fucking asshole and you from time to time give him props. Fuck him. Have some self respect.

            Reply

          • Or he REALLY doesn’t like Stephen.

            Reply

          • Posted by Rex the Wonder Dog!🐶🐶🐶🐾🐾🐾 on February 19, 2021 at 1:38 am

            Or he REALLY doesn’t like Stephen’s “TALKING POINTS” and GOV PROPAGANDA BULLSHIT”.
            It’s your “gov employees are paid the same or less” bullshit I don’t like, not you personally, you Surrender Monkey 👍👍👍🐶🐶🐶

            Reply

    • Posted by Rex the Wonder Dog!🐶🐶🐶🐾🐾🐾 on February 15, 2021 at 10:06 pm

      Evidence; actual empirical data has shown conclusively that, even with the larger pensions and benefits, many public workers still earn a total compensation less than, or equal to, equivalent private sector workers.
      FU Pinocchio … Biggest Bullshit Artist of All-Time….

      Reply

  4. Correction…
    First full paragraph, last lines. “Do not cut their pensions. There is no moral or pragmatic reason to do so.”

    With the possible exception of those few states which deliberately and habitually failed to properly fund their pensions. Failing a bailout, smaller reductions in …all… pensions may be necessary to prevent total plan failure.

    Reply

  5. Just fund the damn pensions you one trick phony.

    Reply

    • Posted by Tough Love on February 15, 2021 at 10:06 am

      Don’t OVER-PROMISE and the bills are a GREAT DEAL SMALLER.

      Reply

    • Posted by Tough Love on February 15, 2021 at 10:45 am

      Regardless of their ludicrously excessive “promised” generosity, Taxpayers should resist ………. by every and any means ……….. FUNDING (or PAYING FOR … like Public Sector retiree healthcare benefits that they VERY RARELY get from their employers) anything greater than what THEY get in retirement security contributions from their employers ……….. about 4%-of-pay annually, NOT the 30%, 40%, 50%, 60% of pay often necessary to fully fund the ludicrously excessive Public Sector Pension/Benefit “promises”

      Public Sector workers are NOT “special” and deserving of a better deal …………. on the Taxpayers’ dime.

      Reply

      • Taxpayers resisting by any means? Are you implying that you or others would be justified in using force against me? Good luck with that.
        How about you give it a rest and pay your taxes like a good little girl.

        Reply

        • Posted by Tough Love on February 15, 2021 at 6:50 pm

          You have an interesting imagination.

          I was thinking more along the lines of Taxpayers protests ………. things like aggressively calling out the Elected Officials known for taking Union campaign contributions and then voting for the things Unions want.

          Any why not some bull-horns outside their houses and BIG signs that say …. ARE THE UNION CONTRIBUTIONS BRIBES ? ……. to emphasize the point.

          Reply

        • Quoting…
          “…Taxpayers should resist ………. by every and any means ……….. FUNDING (or PAYING FOR … like Public Sector retiree healthcare benefits…”

          E…
          “Are you implying that you or others would be justified in using force against me?”

          I never got the impression of using force. I imagined more like literally withholding that percentage of taxes that goes toward pensions and healthcare. I wonder what percentage of state/local taxes that might be?

          And would that work for any other government expense the taxpayer happens to disagree with.

          I picture an option on the tax form…

          Line 21. I am withholding ____% of my payment because I choose not to fund…
          A. Road construction and maintenance.
          B. Welfare
          C. Education
          D. Public worker pensions
          E. Public worker healthcare
          F. Public worker salaries
          G. All the above
          H. Other_______________________

          I mean…

          Reply

          • Posted by Tough Love on February 16, 2021 at 3:12 pm

            Withholding property taxes is of course NOT a good idea …. as you might lose your property. Getting in the faces of the Taxpayer-betraying/Union-beholden Elected Officials is MUCH better.

            And as to protesting OTHER (than pension & benefit) expenses?

            Sure, if they are as ludicrously excessive as Public Sector pensions & benefits CLEARLY are ……….. you know, that pesky little 10 to 15 TIMES the cost of what comparably situated Private Sector workers typically get in retirement security contributions from their employers.

            Reply

          • Lol. Anyone who “gets in my face” is going to wish they hadn’t. You gotta be careful someone doesn’t shove that bullhorn you’re talking about right up your keester 🤣
            The old expression, you play with fire…..

            Reply

          • But we don’t have to worry as you are ALL talk and no action. You will NEVER lead or probably even be at a “revolt” etc.

            Reply

          • Posted by Tough Love on February 16, 2021 at 7:15 pm

            Quoting ME (Touch Love) …………….. “Getting in the faces of the Taxpayer-betraying/Union-beholden Elected Officials is MUCH better.”

            Quoting E’s response ……….. “Anyone who “gets in my face” is going to wish they hadn’t. You gotta be careful someone doesn’t shove that bullhorn you’re talking about right up your keester ”

            Do you even READ what posted before you respond, or do you have a comprehension problem …………. are you an “Elected Official” ?

            Reply

          • Hey….be nice. We are buddies remember.

            Reply

          • “Quoting ME (Touch Love) ……………..”

            Is that Freudian ?

            Reply

          • Hey. Last week she said “tits” instead of this. Now touch love. Lol. But I’m the one with dementia.

            Reply

  6. TL, calm down, If it wasn’t pensions it would be something else. Like Murphy says, “if you don’t like taxes then NJ is not for you”

    Why do you always use the police pension demonstration? What about the teachers, who BTW I couldn’t believe had a “snow” day last week then off again today in light of the fact that they are barely teaching. Now, that’s the real rip off. We as tax payers should be demanding a refund especially us folks who don’t have any kids in school.

    They should hold virtual classes as I’m sure some of these poor kids are already so behind.

    Reply

  7. […] Posted on February 15, 2021 by Mary Pat Campbell EPPRA Bailout Bill Advances […]

    Reply

  8. TL, I agree with you in regard to the financial aspect but at least the police are working 24/7/365. I don’t mind paying people to actually work and keep my community safer but I do mind paying big mouth whiners sitting home and getting paid to do absolutely nothing. And after getting paid to do nothing have the audacity to take a paid snow day and not work on a “holiday”. After all, why would all of those woke teachers want to celebrate a bunch of racist white men??

    IMO all days should available for teaching since they are all getting paid to do nothing including the administrators.

    What’s more important than educating our children? I’ll tell you……a solid well-trained police presence in my community.

    Reply

    • Posted by Rex the Wonder Dog!🐶🐶🐶🐾🐾🐾 on February 16, 2021 at 11:36 am

      “TL, I agree with you in regard to the financial aspect but at least the police are working 24/7/365. I don’t mind paying people to actually work and keep my community safer…”
      They are LUCKY as hell to even be working. If you worked in a restaurant or a million other jobs you would be unemployed today. The private sector, the real world, have suffered like never before, not in the last 75 years. Public employees are not only not suffering at all from massive unemployment, but they are earning compensation that places them in the top 5% of earners in the country-BEFORE COVID-19. I would bet they are now in the top 1%, maybe even higher. Back before the 1980’s cops and gov employees made a decent living, above the median, but NOT 5%er’s. Today cops, firewhiners and a legion of other gov slackee’s, make as much, and in most cases MORE, than the highest paid Professionals in the real world: doctor, CPA, dentist, lawyer etc. GP Doctors at Kaiser START at $140K/year. These private sector Processional jobs require: 1) a Bachelors degree+; 2) another 3-11 years of GRADUATE school+; 3) hundreds of thousands of dollars in tuition costs and living expenses+; 4) 7-15 YEARS of time devoted to study+; 5) the loss of income from that time required to study to become a Professional+; 6) a far above average intelligence level to even get that Processional training, a level the average GED cop and firewhiner can’t even dream of. “Partners” at MAJOR law firms average $500K/year, but are working 100+ hour weeks to make that $500K/year. A firewhiner or cop that works 100/hours/week, @60 hours of OT per week, will OUT EARN the average Partner in MAJOR law firms. Sick and perverse is the only way to describe this. Well, add FRAUDULENT in front of sick and perverse and we have the true reason …

      Reply

      • Sorry Rex. “I’m lucky to have a job” is a loser mentality. And may explain why you don’t have a lot of dough from your own statements. Not judging. Just saying. Anyone who for any length of time has the attitude of “I’m just lucky to have a job” usually finds themselves with the short straw. You’ve been in Cali for a long time. I prescribe to the Al Davis philosophy. When commenting on the expression “take what they give ya” in terms of football, Davis replied “take what they give us? No. We will take what we want.” Winner attitude. Commitment to Excellence.
        The “I’m just happy/lucky to be here” types usually will get steamrolled over the course of a career by the “I’m going to advance to the top” types.

        Reply

        • Posted by Rex the Wonder Dog!🐶🐶🐶🐾🐾🐾 on February 18, 2021 at 3:44 pm

          Sorry Rex. “I’m lucky to have a job” is a loser mentality. And may explain why you don’t have a lot of dough from your own statements. Not judging. Just saying. Anyone who for any length of time has the attitude of “I’m just lucky to have a job” usually finds themselves with the short straw. You’ve been in Cali for a long time. I prescribe to the Al Davis philosophy. When commenting on the expression “take what they give ya” in terms of football, Davis replied “take what they give us? No. We will take what we want.” Winner attitude. Commitment to Excellence.
          The “I’m just happy/lucky to be here” types usually will get steamrolled over the course of a career by the “I’m going to advance to the top” types.

          Public employee “Entitlement Mentality” mental illness on steroids…..🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️

          Reply

    • Amen MJ. Teachers lost a lot of support with the “it’s unsafe to teach in person” bullshit. Right up there with taking Shakespeare out of the curriculum cause he is racist and misogynistic and wait for it…..misogynoir!!! Apparently, this is white men being racist and sexist against only black females. Lol. Give me a fucking break. Get back to educating these children correctly!!!! In person!!!! And to all the teachers who jumped on the anti cop bandwagon last summer——a huge FUCK YOU.
      TL is in that group. Doesn’t leave her damn house anymore. So she won’t criticize the teachers for not teaching in person. I do. Enough already. Get you asses back in school.
      We’re all in this together? Bullshit. TL safe in her jammies having grub hub delivered. Like MJ says, waste of time on here. Pure entertainment and nonsense. She will never think my pension is fair and I certainly will never agree with her. But the difference is, she has NO day whatsoever about me receiving it. Lol. Taxpayer revolt? Are you fucking kidding me? TL, you lead the charge. Haha. That I’d love to see. She couldn’t lead a two person parade.

      Reply

    • Are teachers concerned for their own safety, or because classrooms can be a breeding ground, with kids bringing it from home and sending it to other homes?

      Grocery clerks or Home Depot cashiers can take precautions to protect themselves, as can teachers, but kid to kid transfers are something else.

      Reply

    • Posted by Tough Love on February 16, 2021 at 3:25 pm

      Mj,

      The nonsense with some (like Teachers) refusing to work on-site when the safety of doing so has been appropriately addressed has been going on for too long. As I wrote earlier, the schools need to set a date on which teachers must return to in-class teaching, or it will be assumed that they have resigned and all pay, and benefits end.

      AND made VERY clear, that coming back at some later date will NOT result in back pay for the on-site days missed

      Quoting ……………

      “TL, I agree with you in regard to the financial aspect but at least the police are working 24/7/365. I don’t mind paying people to actually work and keep my community safer”.

      “Paying” “fair” compensation, YES, VASTLY OVER-Compensating, NO.

      In NJ, I believe that most Taxpayers (in non-Public-Sector-worker households) would agree that Police “wage” (alone) are MUCH more likely to be too HIGH rather than too LOW, and then we layer ON TOP OF THAT:

      (a) a pension so generous that it’s annual cost is 10 TIMES what Private Sector workers typically get in retirement security contributions from their employers, AND ….

      (b) Free (Family coverage) retiree healthcare benefits that have an annual premium of $35+K until they reach Medicare age 65.. With most NJ Police retiring in the early 50s, that means that Taxpayers will pay that $35+K (and assuredly increasing with Medical Care inflation) for close to 25 years…… over $750K in total ……….. and all while Private Sector retirees typically get NOTHING towards the cost of Retiree healthcare.

      MJ ……….. is this appropriate, necessary, justifiable, affordable ….. or LUDICROUSLY EXCESSIVE ………… AND Outrageous ?

      Reply

      • And if you asked taxpayers if you (TL) were overcompensated, most would say MOST Definitely!!!!!! But it wouldn’t matter right? What matters is that your employer agreed to pay you that. So has my employer, lol. It hit 50 degrees today. I hope you ventured outside for a change. 😉😉
        Bestie…..

        Reply

        • Posted by Tough Love on February 16, 2021 at 7:21 pm

          P.S. I’m out and about every day (exercise and fresh air is goof for you) ………… just being VERY careful to keep my distance and wear 2 top-notch masks …………… so good, I’d probably survive asbestos abatement !

          Reply

          • 2 masks!!!! Overkill my friend. I don’t wear my mask outside unless I’m within 10 feet or so of people.
            I mean, if I taped my mouth and nose completely shut, very very quickly I would be at zero risk of spreading Or receiving(hopefully not, vaccinated) covid 19

            Reply

  9. TL, I thought that E had explained many times that the new members are no longer eligible for life time health benefits. I have a friend who works in a south Jersey county and those newer employees are not eligible for life time health benefits

    Reform is a very very slow process my friend

    Two masks??? You are joking. Is that like wearing a mask in your own car while driving alone? Come on now….

    Reply

    • Most coming on don’t get that benefit anymore. You are correct MJ. And very few actives get them for free. Those that do have at least 30 years in. Not many cops left that do. Or they have agreed to have the town pay for the whole thing in exchange for it being taken from new hires. This is done at the towns request and had been done all over Bergen county at least.
      Also, those with under 11 years or so on, can’t get a pension worth more than about $90,000 or so. 65% of the SS limit. With no SS coming their way and no medical, longevity etc not as good a deal. We gave longevity for new hires up in 2018 as Part of the deal for the medical. That means that two officers the same rank that are on either side of that date will have a pay difference of 14% at retirement in the same rank. I can’t speak to the other pension funds, but PFRS is in much better shape. TL knows this. It is not a matter of whether the fund is in shape. For her, it is jealousy. And she gives the impression that she is well able to afford her tax bill. So what else could it be? She has issues my friend.

      Reply

    • Posted by Tough Love on February 17, 2021 at 11:33 am

    • Posted by Tough Love on February 17, 2021 at 11:38 am

      Do you believe for even a moment that as those NOT promised the FREE retiree healthcare benefits won’t start making a HUGE stink as they approach retirement in their 50’s ?

      While they likely won’t get it free, they assuredly will get it very heavily subsidized ……… and while Private Sector retirees will still be getting NOTHING from their employers.

      If you believe otherwise, you’re a fool.

      Reply

      • Seeing as how that won’t be an issue for at least 23 years in our dept anyway…there is a very good chance that by then we ALL will be on socialized medicine with no difference between public and private sector. My kids will be in there late thirties and the paradigm of employer sponsored healthcare may very well have gone the way of the dodo by then. Simply because it will continue to be so darn expensive.
        Absent that….do I think that these young guys will get it back? No. Not unless it becomes common in the private sector again. Rather I do think a generation from now we WILL have govt run healthcare.

        Reply

        • Posted by Tough Love on February 17, 2021 at 6:54 pm

          Yes, and those retiring within the 23 year period will be costing Taxpayers about $750K EACH in total premiums (and increased with inflation) prior to reaching Medicare age for their FREE retiree healthcare premiums ……….. unheard of in the Private Sector.

          It’s patently outrageous to ABUSE Taxpayers this way.

          NJ’s Taxpayers have been SUCKERED for far too long.

          Reply

  10. I can’t predict what will happen in 23 hours or 23 days let alone 23 years ! As I’ve always stated on here, no body knows what will happen or what it might look like for any of us.

    Best to enjoy the moment, stay healthy both physically and mentally, live debt free, work as long as we are getting some level of satisfaction from our career choices, keep our families close and do what we can for others.

    Stay safe my friends. More bad weather headed our way. Hoping for an early spring but do enjoy a good snow storm!

    Reply

    • You mean you don’t wanna be consumed on a daily basis with this one issue? Between my pension and trump does she even think about anything else?

      Reply

      • Posted by Tough Love on February 18, 2021 at 7:19 pm

        Your pension & Trump ?

        You forgot about your FREE retiree healthcare (worth about $750K before you reach Medicare age) ………… something all but unheard of in the Private Sector.

        Your Towns Taxpayers should find a way to NOT pay for it.

        Reply

  11. Posted by Tough Love on February 17, 2021 at 8:27 pm

    Let’s start with reforming Police contracts………….. and here’s how it should work (noting that we likely need a MAJOR change in the arbitration guidelines):

    A committee representing the Taxpayers sits in while every sentence of a proposed Police contract is read aloud followed by the answering of a question ………. do Private Sector workers TYPICALLY get the same.

    If not, it gets eliminated, and we move on to the next sentence.

    And to be fair, what Private Sector workers typically get but is NOT now in Police contracts, should be added in.
    ——————————-

    EQUAL, but NOT better…… on the Taxpayers’ dime.

    Reply

    • Let me know how that works out for ya. 🤣🤣

      Reply

      • Posted by Tough Love on February 17, 2021 at 11:44 pm

        Oh, I get it ……..

        “EQUAL, but NOT better” ………. is NOT Ok !

        Reply

        • Correct. It’s a dog eat dog world. Everyone, including me, is free to earn whatever it is that their employer will give them. Nowhere is it written that this guy gets A and this guy also gets A and this gal also gets A etc. maybe you ought to reduce YOUR income to what the average private (or public) sector employee with similar worth to society at large earns. Only fair right? Are you really worth more than someone who drives a truck bringing the food that the Grubhub driver will deliver right to your doorstep and leave there ? All you have to do is open the door and not even get snow on your jammies. Lol. Stop telling me about equal. When it comes to pay it is a figment of your imagination. Some marry into $$, is that equal too?

          Reply

          • Posted by Tough Love on February 18, 2021 at 7:28 pm

            Quoting …………

            ” Everyone, including me, is free to earn whatever it is that their employer will give them. ”

            Oh Please ………… Public Sector are NOT competing on a level Playing field as must Private Sector workers.

            YOU get to “negotiate” with Elected Officials who:

            (a) must field threats to get them out of Office if they don’t support your Union’s agenda, and
            (b) are beholden to your Unions for campaign contributions and Election/RE-Election support.

            Private Sector workers don’t get to “negotiate” with those over whom they have “sway”.
            ————————–

            Your starting to sound as stupid as Stephen. The reader of this Blog …..know how the dirty game is played …….. (lol) partly from my commentary !

            Reply

          • Posted by Rex the Wonder Dog!🐶🐶🐶🐾🐾🐾 on February 19, 2021 at 1:45 am

            Your starting to sound as stupid as Stephen.
            No, EG will never be able to climb that mountain. Dougieee/Stephen claims to be college educated, as does EG, but I question Dougieee’s claim😮😮😮 EG less so.

            Reply

  12. Speaking of Trump (although I realize TL is obsessed)

    NOT reported in the MSM

    While the country burns with Covid, power outages, brutal weather, continued school closures, shaky dealings with Iran, unheard of federal deficits, record high unemployment, etc, etc, here are 3 bills that the House introduced the other day while we were all dealing with winter blizzards:

    Banning Trump from ever entering Capitol building again

    Banning Trump from be buried in Arlington Cemetery

    Banning any Federal building from ever being named after Trump

    Can’t make this shit up.

    They are ALL lunatics!

    Reply

    • Posted by Tough Love on February 19, 2021 at 7:26 pm

      Does Arlington have a Cesspool with open grave-sites nearby ?

      Reply

      • TL, do you plan on jumping in :):) and swimming around with your friends and I use the term friends lightly

        Reply

        • Posted by Rex the Wonder Dog!🐶🐶🐶🐾🐾🐾 on February 20, 2021 at 1:06 pm

          TL, do you plan on jumping in :):) and swimming around with your friends and I use the term friends lightly
          Bada BING… Drum Roll Please 🙂 … TL’s TDS has not yet been contained or killed off, she needs her second dose of the TDS vaccination video, it is still under it’s expiration date:

          Reply

        • Posted by Tough Love on February 20, 2021 at 1:16 pm

          Why you don’t think equally poorly of Trump is the mystery.think. He has been the same defective person for decades. Given that LONG history, why anyone would have thought he would all-of-a-sudden become “normal” if elected President is another mystery.

          P.S. You (and E) spend too much time chastising me for issues on which I HAVEN’T commented. Very weird to look ak it from that direction, as I can think of hundreds of other important issues that I (and YOU) have also not commented on.

          Reply

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