Pension Bailout Bar

It’s set and those running the Road Carriers Local 707 Welfare and Pension Fund know what to expect:

Best news ever, a short time ago the Senate passed the American Relief Plan which includes a Pension Relief Bill that provides true pension relief for actives and retirees of Local 707. The final version of the Pension Reform Bill provides for a lump sum payment of close to $800 million to the Local 707 Pension Fund to fund all past liabilities and 30 years into the future. This means a complete restoration of benefits reduced by PBGC cuts beginning in 2016, including the 13th check. The Bill also calls for a lump sum payment to retirees for any benefits lost due to these reductions.   Because the bill was amended in the Senate, the House must vote on the amended Bill on Tuesday. The Bill is expected to be approved on a party line vote and presented to the President for signature as soon as it is passed in the House.

Now that multiemployer plans have their blank check what can these others expect (or demand)?

  • Anyone who has ever had their pension reduced by PBGC in a distress termination.
  • Those of us* who have lost pensions through bankruptcy or theft.
  • And when their time comes, this modest group.

Are they not worthy?

Plan Name: Road Carriers Local 707 Pension Fund
EIN/PN: 51-6106510/001
Total participants @ 1/31/20 4,247 including:
Retirees: 2,778
Separated but entitled to benefits: 694
Still working: 775

Asset Value (Market) @ 2/1/19: 5,545,790
Value of liabilities using RPA rate (3.07%) @ 2/1/19: $867,395,077 including:
Retirees: $594,491,960
Separated but entitled to benefits: $101,994,777
Still working: $170,908,340

Funded ratio: 0.64%
Unfunded Liabilities as of 2/1/19: $861,849,287

Asset Value (Market) as of 1/31/20: $4,891,825
Contributions(H): $4,892,655 Contributions (SB): $19,996,755 Payouts: $19,927,937
Expenses: $895,571

.

.

* It was decades ago ago when I worked at an actuarial place run by an EA who also signed off on the SBs and when he died it turned out there was only enough money in the DB plan to pay five of us a few thousand dollars each.

48 responses to this post.

  1. Posted by Tough Love on March 6, 2021 at 9:31 pm

    Remember Bury commentator “Gentle Reader”/”Magic Bean” Tim Alexander, the champion or Multi-employer bailouts ?

    I guess there ARE money trees.

    Reply

    • Posted by E on March 6, 2021 at 11:13 pm

      Had to have been an act. No one could be that dorky. Could they? Nice enough man no?

      Reply

      • He was completely on the level.

        Anyway, I guess his theory is about to be tried out.

        Reply

        • Posted by E on March 7, 2021 at 7:56 am

          I liked him. I did find the Gentle Reader intro etc to be a little different, I thought maybe a schtick or trademark type of deal to stand out, but he was a nice guy and I appreciated his feedback and contributions to the blog. TL on the other hand🙄 didn’t care for him. We need more nice ness and gentle readers in this world. Lol. I would love to hear from him again and hope he is well.

          Reply

          • Posted by Rex the Wonder Dog!🐶🐶🐶🐾🐾🐾 on March 7, 2021 at 7:00 pm

            We need more nice ness and gentle readers in this world.
            Oh STFU you pansy ass Surrender Monkey🐒 .. the Internet was made for anonymous trolling and insults, we live for it 🙂

            Reply

          • Posted by E on March 7, 2021 at 11:49 pm

            Maybe for those like you who never get laid. 😂😂😂
            You even admitted the thought never crosses your mind. So of course you need to insult people. It makes up for your inadequacies in your life.

            Reply

        • Posted by Tough Love on March 7, 2021 at 3:00 pm

          It’s not really a matter of how his “theory” works out, as the $86B isn’t going to bankrupt America any more than worthwhile expenditures of $86B.

          It’s a matter of the complete rejection of responsibility FAIRNESS to Taxpayers.who had nothing to do with the Union/participating-employer Multi-employer pension Plans, where both parties knew FOR DECADES that the promises-made where much greater than what could be paid for via the “negotiated” employer contributions.

          We both know that Final Average Salary DB Plans cannot be funded via an arrangement where benefits are formula-driven and contributions are “negotiated” and not DETERMINED based on evolving experience.

          Of course it was a huge fault of the Gov’t for allowing such a funding structure in the first place.

          Reply

          • Posted by Rex the Wonder Dog!🐶🐶🐶🐾🐾🐾 on March 7, 2021 at 6:54 pm

            Tim is BRIALLLIANT! I mean, what is not to “like” about Tim? We have nothing to “loose” 🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️ Although Boscoe (great name/handle!) was a bit harsh on Timmy 🤣 I wish I could recall the Butch Lewis tool who would come on here and post pure propaganda by claiming that the Act was just a “loan” and there was no taxpayer risk and the money would be repaid, yada yada yada…. 🤮
            Posted by Timothy J. Alexander on November 12, 2017 at 12:12 pm

            Hi-Tim here. Apologies as my web site is being rebuilt. My company has a total of 117 years expertise, summation of years work experience for all coworkers. Please feel free to call. I welcome intelligent conversation.
            PS-when looking at the national pension crisis, this is larger than the banking crisis. The government gave a banking bailout so why not pensions. The Fed has announced it will sell the securities, what does the money go for? I am saying we stake it for pension relief.
            What do you and millions like you have to loose?

            🙂
            Posted by boscoe

            Is this a late April Fool’s joke? This guy’s company has a non-active website, and his LinkedIn profile says he’s been with them for 117 years. https://www.linkedin.com/in/tim-alexander-9143a61b
            Link: https://burypensions.wordpress.com/2017/11/11/pension-crises-and-hope-strange-bedfellows/

            Reply

  2. […] Posted on March 7, 2021March 7, 2021 by Mary Pat Campbell Pension Bailout Bar […]

    Reply

  3. Posted by A on March 7, 2021 at 11:21 am

    Although Republicans voted lock-step against the stimulus bill, I believe there was some prior support for MEP bailouts.

    I was surprised this one was so extreme, though. Haven’t read the whole thing, but it looks like complete restitution (including 13th checks?) with no reform?
    I wouldn’t expect that for private -or- public pensions.

    Reply

  4. Participants in the voluntary 403(b) plan of the Teachers’ Retirement System of the City of New York lend their 403(b) savings to the City of New York at a statutory rate of interest of about 7.5 percent. As of 6/30/20 they lent the City $26B and collected $1.85B in statutory interest.

    I looks like the City can use its check to pay for this obligation.

    Reply

    • Posted by Tough Love on March 7, 2021 at 1:58 pm

      This guaranteed 7.5% interest rate ……….. in this 2% interest rate environment …….. in this and similar PUBLIC Sector Plans, is an outrageous abuse of the Taxpayers.

      Reply

      • Posted by E on March 7, 2021 at 2:57 pm

        2%? Cmon already with that. NJ pensions made 14.8% last year. I agree the 7.5% is too high. But let’s not make it out to be a 2% environment. Anyone who invested properly made oodles of dough. PENN went from $4 in March to $100. SQ was being sold for $30-35 in March. And kissed $300 recently before dropping(Thx Biden).
        If you made 2% last year, you LOST BIGLY. Lol…..

        Reply

        • Posted by Tough Love on March 7, 2021 at 3:10 pm

          E, you don’t understand economics …….. at all.

          The 7.5% rate credited is GUARANTEED, and hence should be compared to what rate is available in the open market on similarly GUARANTEED investments.

          That guarantee does NOT come without a real cost …………. the cost of “risk” associated with non-guaranteed investments that may indeed may go badly wrong.

          It’s just that in the PUBLIC Sector, the workers get to IGNORE that risk and and force the consequences upon Taxpayers when things DO go wrong.

          Reply

        • Posted by A on March 7, 2021 at 5:21 pm

          E, you ignorant slut…

          “E, you don’t understand economics …….. at all.”

          C’mon man. It’s a loan… (That’s like a mortgage.) I just had HVAC replaced and they offered a 7 percent loan. I took it gladly, even in a 2 percent world.

          Reply

          • Posted by E on March 7, 2021 at 5:51 pm

            2020 was certainly anything but a 2% environment for investors. I agree the 7.5 is too high. I’m just saying this idea that folks will be tickled pink to make 2% on their investments is a joke. (Your words not mine). Mortgage rates yea. I got one for 2.14% on a 15 yr in dec. smart folks borrowed dough and let their capital work for them via strong gains in the stock market.

            Reply

          • Posted by A on March 7, 2021 at 6:18 pm

            Hey! Teacher! Leave those kids alone.

            Reply

          • Posted by Tough Love on March 7, 2021 at 8:20 pm

            E,
            From your response, you indeed are clueless that “risk” indeed has a cost (and that that cost can be reasonably estimate), and that SOMEONE (the Taxpayer) does pay for it, even though NOT you.

            Not surprising given your employment in the PUBLIC Sector where workers are (via the pensions and high guaranteed returns such as that mentioned above) “excused” from having to shoulder the cost of that “risk” cost ………… as Private Sector workers (few of whom get more than 401K Plans from their employers today) MUST do.

            Reply

          • Posted by A on March 7, 2021 at 10:00 pm

            We have to listen to our teachers because they’re older and wider.

            Your whole risk free rate kick is oversimplified, at best.

            A. Who says it’s two percent? What was it ten years ago? What will it be ten years from now?

            B. We are not buying an annuity today. At today’s rate. E has been “earning” his pension for over twenty five years, and will be drawing it for twenty five more. (Or more, long live E!)

            A. “In practice, however, a truly risk-free rate does not exist because even the safest investments carry a very small amount of risk. To calculate the real risk-free rate, subtract the inflation rate from the yield of the Treasury bond matching your investment duration.”

            B. “Yet, we still hear from researchers who insist that Treasury bond rates would tell the “true story.” That just doesn’t reflect how the world works. Pension funds are not going to invest their entire portfolio in 3 percent Treasury bonds right now — or ever — so the risk-free model is not even descriptive of reality and has little normative value.

            In fact, that would be a stupid strategy to employ at the bottom of an 80-year interest rate cycle. As my research shows, today’s odds of beating inflation with bond portfolios over coming decades are terrible and the expected returns from equities are actually higher than the conventional 85-year Ibbotson averages — once we get past 2020. As I’ve testified to the GASB during their public hearings, a risk-free discount rate would ultimately result in excessive burdens on today’s generation of taxpayers and invite mischief in the future as this approach is a sure-fire way to produce over-funded pension plans in the long run. (I know this sounds laughable in today’s funding environment, but that is the logical multi-generational result of the risk-free model.)”
            (Girard Miller)

            Key words, IMHO; “In fact, that would be a stupid strategy to employ at the bottom of an 80-year interest rate cycle.” Ask E what his mortgage rate is, compared to ten or fifteen years ago.

            Pensions are a “multi-generational” system. They need reform. Logical reform. Don’t begin a vast project with half vast ideas.

            Reply

          • Posted by Tough Love on March 7, 2021 at 10:38 pm

            Quoting Stephen Douglas ……………

            “A. Who says it’s two percent? What was it ten years ago? What will it be ten years from now?

            B. We are not buying an annuity today. At today’s rate.”
            ———————-
            My above comment’s began in response to Joel Frank’s comment that ……………” New York lend their 403(b) savings to the City of New York at a statutory rate of interest of about 7.5 percent”

            That is a 7.5% GUARANTEED return TODAY ….. in a 2% “guaranteed” interest rate environment. It has NOTHING to do with an annuity.

            That 7.5% is a GUARANTEED return …. with ZERO RISK (to the workers*) ………. in an environment where to achieve a 7.5% return involves SIGNIFICANT risk.

            * that RISK doesn’t simply go away or not exist because the workers don’t assume that risk. The “COST” of that risk is simply (and UNJUSTLY) being passed on to NYC’s Taxpayers.
            ———————-

            * And …”Who says it’s two percent?”

            “The market” ……………

            Current Corporate Bond Rates:
            US Corporate AA Effective Yield 1.85%
            US Corporate AAA Effective Yield 2.05%

            Reply

          • Posted by A on March 7, 2021 at 11:05 pm

            “What was it ten years ago? What will it be ten years from now?”

            “…, a risk-free discount rate would ultimately result in excessive burdens on today’s generation of taxpayers and invite mischief in the future as this approach is a sure-fire way to produce over-funded pension plans in the long run. (I know this sounds laughable in today’s funding environment, but that is the logical multi-generational result of the risk-free model.)”

            Reply

          • Posted by Tough Love on March 7, 2021 at 11:10 pm

            Is it not clear enough that I am commenting on the situation TODAY ……… paying a GUARANTEED 7.5% in a 2% guaranteed interest rate environment ?

            There is ZERO justification for that.

            If only there was a way for any risk that materializes to be REFUSED by the Taxpayers upon whom the consequences will be forced.

            Reply

          • Posted by E on March 7, 2021 at 11:58 pm

            TL. You’re starting again. Calm the fuck down!!! I said I agree the 7.5% is too high.

            What I disagree with )in earnest) is the that it is a 2% environment. The funds made 14.8% last year. You’re 401k probably beat that. My 457 sure did. And yet you say folks would be “tickled pink” to make 2% on their money. Yea, maybe stupid ones. Or ones in their 90’s.
            Just relax and pay up. You stress out to much about pensions and such. Stop worrying about what you local cop makes. As Mary Pat says—“Itty bitty”. Just be fucking happy you can work from home in your jammies making decent coin providing us with an unessential service. Maybe study botany or gardening. Stress reliever. Me? I like to fish.

            Reply

          • Posted by Tough Love on March 8, 2021 at 1:48 am

            E,

            One more time………..

            I’m not talking about a reasonable investment return EXPECTATION from a balanced portfolio of equities, real estate, Bonds, etc. (which would indeed be much higher than 2 %) ……….. but what return investors are willing to accept (and deemed appropriate & reasonable) for a GUARANTEED return in CURRENT market conditions. THAT rate is now about 2%.

            Again ……. I’m NOT talking about the exception from a balanced investment portfolio.

            When Public Sector workers can “invest” their DC Plan accumulations in such GUARANTEED-return products, the market rate return is now about 2%, and anyone guaranteeing them 7.5% (and going in w/o an exception to lose money) must invest the funds turned over to them in a portfolio MUCH riskier than guaranteed-return investments if they are targeting an overall 7.5% return.

            The “problem” and “unfairness” with the arrangement granted these workers is that they have been promised the “upside” of that risky portfolio (with perhaps a 7.5% expected return), but WITHOUT accepting ANY of the risk of doing so.

            Reply

          • Posted by E on March 8, 2021 at 8:25 am

            Then indeed we were talking about two different things. Perhaps I lumped this comment in with your earlier comment from a couple weeks ago stating that investors would be tickled pink with 2%. Whatever.

            Reply

          • Posted by A on March 8, 2021 at 1:52 pm

            “Is it not clear enough…”

            LOL.. No, sir. It all sounds the same… Yadda, yadda, yadda.

            Still clear as mud.

            “It’s like a mortgage.”

            If you agree to payments of $2,000/month for thirty years, the bank doesn’t care where you get the money. The “risk” is yours. If you were counting on ROI to cover the payments and interest rates drop, that’s on you.

            If the state agrees to pay me 75 percent of FAS (till I die), it is incumbent upon them to prepare for those payments. In the past, and in some cases still current, pensions, and OPEBs, were pay as you go. Risk is not a factor.

            Hence pension reform. It can be done. It has been done. It is still being done.

            Reply

          • Posted by A on March 8, 2021 at 1:57 pm

            Posted by Tough Love on March 8, 2021 at 1:48 am

            E,

            One more time……….

            LOL,

            HEY!

            TEACHER!

            Leave them kids alone!

            Reply

      • Posted by MJF on March 7, 2021 at 3:00 pm

        It is a fiction perpetuated by taxpayers who could not make change at a cash register. So what to do?

        Reply

  5. Posted by Rex the Wonder Dog!🐶🐶🐶🐾🐾🐾 on March 7, 2021 at 6:58 pm

    This means a complete restoration of benefits reduced by PBGC cuts beginning in 2016, including the 13th check.
    The 13th Check, aka “The Waterfall” is usually a check cut to the retirees whenever the annual fund return exceeds the discount rate, which is not what is going on here at all. How the F*&^ can they get a 13th Check???? IF, a big if, this is on the level stick you can just a fork in America, because we’re done……

    Reply

    • Posted by E on March 8, 2021 at 12:00 am

      Yea!!!! You, me, TL, doggie, and LYLE ALZADO!!!!!! Oh wait….
      Oh well, you him and Ms grinch would’ve made a nice threesome. 😂😂😂

      Reply

  6. Posted by MJ on March 8, 2021 at 6:44 am

    Kids, kids, you all need to calm down. None of this math and actuarily analysis means anything at all because it is racist European based math. Surely, the projections, investment returns, etc. can be figured out in a less racist equation.

    TL, would you provide one of your pension demonstrations using the non-white, non-European based math systems :):):)

    Reply

    • Posted by E on March 8, 2021 at 8:44 am

      But but but….math originated in Egypt. Wasn’t really a discipline per se in Greek until centuries later. The pyramids were built by slaves so….cancel them and destroy them. Oh wait. It’s not American slavery so it’s ok.
      Yea. Have at it TL. Stop with your euro-centric examples and go rogue.
      Either way, E still getting his pension.
      I hear the tea pot humming? Time to roll outta bed, put ur fuzzy slippers on and throw some marshmallows in a nice hot cup of cocoa. Then slowly make your way to the computer, log on, and provide us with a non essential service while being jealous of your local cops Lol. Using me as your conduit for that. Haha.

      Reply

  7. Posted by MJ on March 8, 2021 at 9:12 am

    E, good God man what brought that on?

    Reply

    • Posted by E on March 8, 2021 at 9:52 am

      Just poking the bear…..she thinks she is hot shit. lol. Anti trumper. Lol.

      Reply

      • Posted by Tough Love on March 8, 2021 at 12:33 pm

        Ok E, so let’s get down to the NITTY-GRITTY of that math/investment discussion …….

        With PRIVATE Sector 401K investors having to take on SIGNIFICANT risk to target (i.e., structure their portfolio choices) a 7.5% annual investment return, what is the JUSTIFICATION for the PUBLIC Sector 403B Plan investors (that Joel Frank identified above) to be given the option to get that 7.5% return on a GUARANTEED basis, accepting no risk ………… noting that the “cost” of that risk (which is significant and quantifiable) hasn’t disappeared, it’s just been shifted from the 403B investors to the backstopping Taxpayers ?

        Reply

        • Posted by E on March 8, 2021 at 3:16 pm

          Ahh yes. Cant comprehend that I stated that I was referring to something different?? We had our wires crossed. I said the 7.5% is too high and last time I checked no rank and file cop/teacher told anyone to use that number. Give it a rest, already.
          But what I was specifically talking about is that NO investor would be tickled pink to earn 2% any year. (Maybe 2009-10 etc only) Much less less this year. Next topic fool. Oh yeah forgot. You got 2 of em. Pensions and Trump. You finally get dressed to start your day yet? Lol.

          Reply

          • Posted by E on March 8, 2021 at 3:19 pm

            Your problem and everyone else on here, use doom and gloom scenarios while at the same time living high on the hog. You’re just not the important enough (nor am I) to influence any of these politicians. But my Association Was and is important enough apparently according to you. 🙄

            Reply

          • Posted by Tough Love on March 8, 2021 at 3:56 pm

            Yes, I have little direct influence ……….. nor does it seem does anyone else not waiving a potential large block of supporting voters or a willing checkbook with a large balance for campaign contributions.

            I doesn’t matter that the police or teachers didn’t set the 7.5% GUARANTEED rate in a 2% Guaranteed-rate investment environment. It shouldn’t exit ……period …….. because it just unjustly adds (ON TOP OF already excessive DB pensions) to the financial abuse of the Taxpayers.

            Reply

  8. Posted by s & p 500 on March 9, 2021 at 1:15 am

    Well maybe it’s not that much of a ripoff for taxpayers, since truck drivers will be replaced by self-driving trucks. MEP’s are one thing, unfunded public pensions are another. Those are not getting bailed out because that much money doesn’t exist. The public school system is going to crumble like the set of a SAW movie, and the Covid cuts haven’t even started. Voters in Calif. rejected baseless demands for school funding, rejecting Prop 15. I don’t want to invest in the kids. If teachers need new books that cost $100 each, they better organize some bake sales.

    Reply

  9. Posted by MJ on March 9, 2021 at 7:05 am

    E, How is “doom and gloom” a scenario that you say most on here talk about. Stating facts, providing mathematical demonstrations, commenting on articles….is not doom and gloom it is just the reality of the current situation both at the state and national level.

    None of us knows what could happen down the road and the politicians definitely do not have the best interests of all Americans at heart. Slimy, corrupt, inept live long parasites many of them already in their 80s.

    If you want to bank your fortune on these people, be my guest. Facts are facts and with the country never being in debt at the levels we are now seeing, something has got to give. And what are you going to do about it if it came to cuts, reductions or major reforms to your pensions and/or health benefits.

    It’s reality steeped in theater of the absurd and we are all forced to play along at least for now. Enjoy it while you can my friend

    Reply

    • Posted by Tough Love on March 9, 2021 at 10:02 am

      Wow ……….. I’m sure E wasn’t expecting THAT !

      Reply

    • Posted by Rex the Wonder Dog!🐶🐶🐶🐾🐾🐾 on March 9, 2021 at 10:27 am

      E, How is “doom and gloom” a scenario that you say most on here talk about. Stating facts, providing mathematical demonstrations, commenting on articles….is not doom and gloom it is just the reality of the current situation both at the state and national level.

      None of us knows what could happen down the road and the politicians definitely do not have the best interests of all Americans at heart. Slimy, corrupt, inept live long parasites many of them already in their 80s.

      If you want to bank your fortune on these people, be my guest. Facts are facts and with the country never being in debt at the levels we are now seeing, something has got to give. And what are you going to do about it if it came to cuts, reductions or major reforms to your pensions and/or health benefits.

      It’s reality steeped in theater of the absurd and we are all forced to play along at least for now. Enjoy it while you can my friend
      BAM!!!!!!!!!!!!!

      Wow ……….. I’m sure E wasn’t expecting THAT !
      Double BAM BAM!!
      El Feo is never going to recover from that 1-2 Knock-OUT punch 🤸‍♀️🤸‍♀️🤸‍♀️🐕🐕🐕

      Reply

  10. Posted by MJ on March 9, 2021 at 1:12 pm

    TL, it’s not about E “expecting anything” but as I stated all is rooted in fact. Maybe the facts sway a little one way more than the other but I don’t see how any reasonable person can not see the very slippery slope we are on as a state and as a country. The reality to me is that it doesn’t matter to whom the trillions of dollars in debt is owed but the FACT that it is owed and the bill will come due one day.

    I think you hit the nail on the head in your explanation of “risks” in any investment. Private folks take risk in managing their retirement investments, most wealthier private sector folks probably took a lot of financial risk to create a business, grow a company, provide jobs to those in the community. Public workers, no risk, no accountability and if the investments come up short, oh well, we’re all good for it right?

    ITMT, we are all forced to play along, and pretend that there will not be any consequences to trillions upon trillions of dollars of debt……it’s probably too late to do anything about it but I don’t want to sound doom and gloomy I’ll continue to hope and pray for the best for our future generations.

    Reply

    • Posted by Tough Love on March 9, 2021 at 1:23 pm

      Actually, E isn’t “expecting” just “anything” ……. he’s expecting “everything” (the WHOLE enchilada), including a ludicrously excessive lifelong pension, and FREE retiree healthcare.

      And surprisingly (thought not for someone with a career listening to their Union’s BS) thinks he “deserves” it.

      Time will tell.

      Reply

      • Posted by E on March 9, 2021 at 7:14 pm

        Lol. Of course I deserve it and expect it. Just like you all do from your employers.
        No difference.

        Reply

        • Posted by Tough Love on March 9, 2021 at 7:24 pm

          No E …………

          I, like all Private Sector workers ………. and very UNLIKE Public Sector workers ……… have no sway over the amount of my compensation increases (IF ANY in a less profitable year for my employer) and whether my boss gets to keep his/her job.

          Reply

          • Posted by E on March 10, 2021 at 2:00 pm

            I call bullshit. Any employee can leave or negotiate for a higher raise. Any one of them. Either you don’t bring value to your company, or perhaps more likely, you’re not the breadwinner in your family and don’t feel the pressure of providing for them. I’m just lucky to have a job= loser mentality.

            Reply

          • Posted by E on March 10, 2021 at 2:02 pm

            And at times, why the hell would you car if your boss kept her job? Wouldn’t YOU want it. Lol.

            Reply

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