IBEW 237 – Waiting to Die

Last April one of the worst funded multiemployer plans to file for benefit cuts under MPRA (I.B.E.W. Local Union No. 237 Pension Plan out of Niagara Falls, NY) withdrew their application. Last week they submitted their 5500 filing for 2018 (3 times):

  1. October 9, 2019 (72 pages)
  2. October 15, 2019 (74 pages)
  3. Later that day (81 pages)

What changed?

Not the current liability interest rate reported on all three submissions to be 298.00%:

The change in the second filing was the insertion of the Plan Provisions attachment and one change in the final filing was the insertion of an Amortization Schedule attachment (the software we use does not allow you to submit DB plans without these exhibits). The other change in that final filing was the insertion of a funding deficiency of $12,954,612 (left blank on the first two filings) which had been $7,511,641 on the 2017 filing. How do you miss reporting a $13 million funding deficiency? Pretty easily these days.

To encourage sponsors to fund their plans taxes are imposed on funding deficiencies (10% on single-employer plans and 5% on multiemployer plans and then 100% if not corrected – which in this case would be the value of the entire fund). However pursuant to IRC 4971(g)(1), the IRC 4971 excise tax doesn’t apply to any multiemployer plan in critical status for years beginning in 2008 and after thus making reporting funding deficiencies in multiemployer plans little more than afterthoughts.

From that last filing:

Plan Name: IBEW Local Union 237 Pension Fund
EIN/PN: 16-6094914/001
Total participants @ 12/31/18: 416 including:
Retirees: 174
Separated but entitled to benefits: 68
Still working: 174

Asset Value (Market) @ 1/1/18: $19,322,588
Value of liabilities using RPA rate (298.00%) @ 1/1/18: $123,934,144 including:
Retirees: $65,742,323
Separated but entitled to benefits: $13,538,380
Still working: $44,653,441

Funded ratio: 15.5918%
Unfunded Liabilities as of 1/1/18: $104,611,556

Asset Value (Market) as of 12/31/18: $16,481,151
Contributions: $3,364,254
Payouts: $4,950,543
Expenses: $425,294

106 responses to this post.

  1. Posted by Rex the Wonder Dog! on October 22, 2019 at 2:08 pm

    Funded ratio: 15.5918%
    These are HONEST blue collar hardworking middle class employees.

    HOW in the hell can a pension fund get down to 15% funded level??? HOW???
    How does its’ funding get that SCREWED up? Is it fraud? Malfeasance? Breach of fiduciary duty? All of the above? SOMEONE, ANYONE, please tell me how the fund gets to 15% without someone, anyone, stepping in and taking MAJOR steps to fix it?
    I am just a K-9 seeking simple answers, and standing up for, for the backbone of America.
    🐶🐶🐶🦴🦴🦴

    Reply

  2. Posted by Anonymous on October 22, 2019 at 3:11 pm

    “How did you go bankrupt?”
    Two ways. Gradually, then suddenly.”

    ― Ernest Hemingway, The Sun Also Rises

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/ebauer/2018/12/03/understanding-the-central-states-pension-plans-tale-of-woe/#329e50856c10

    Reply

  3. Posted by Tough Love on October 22, 2019 at 4:32 pm

    Off Topic ………….

    Finally, “the smoking gun” !

    https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/22/politics/bill-taylor-deposition-text-messages/index.html

    Article Title: US’ top diplomat Taylor was told Trump wanted aid withheld until Ukraine said it would investigate Biden

    Reply

  4. Posted by Anonymous on October 22, 2019 at 5:24 pm

    Sample of proposed reductions…

    63 yr. old retiree 44 yrs. service

    Current benefit… $3,780 mo.

    Proposed …. $2,515 mo.

    In each case, the proposed contingent beneficiary continuation would be 50 percent.

    MPRA application..

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.treasury.gov/services/KlineMillerApplications/IBEW_237_MPRA_Application_Part_1_of_2.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwihnNuk17DlAhUNWqwKHT0dA-UQFjABegQIBBAB&usg=AOvVaw1ut32fB1Ecpa8-n9jH04ye

    Reply

    • Posted by Tough Love on October 22, 2019 at 5:50 pm

      Quoting ……………

      63 yr. old retiree 44 yrs. service
      Current benefit… $3,780 mo.

      They are Union Electrical workers. Doesn’t get much higher that than for the “trades”.

      Compare that to El gaupo’s pension………… about $97,500/yr ($8,125/mo) after only 25 years and starting at age 50.

      Is that necessary, reasonable, fair to Taxpayers who pay for 80% to 90% of total Plan cost, or affordable ………………… or just a monumental financial rape of the Taxpayers ?

      Reply

  5. My father is a retired union electrician. Believe me, he has it pretty damn good. About $4,000 or so month pension. Add on social security.
    A “b” fund, which is an annuity that was fully paid by his employer. Like a 401k that he did t have to fund and FREE medical since he retired at 62. 24 years ago. 6 months after I got hired.
    Plus he was able to work off the books on the side for decades.
    So..yea. I explained in an earlier post the facts of the stresses of this job that lead to laws allowing an earlier retirement. You may not think that the job with one of true highest if not the highest suicide rate deserves an earlier retirement age, but generally speaking every country in the WHOLE world does. Unions or not. No other private sector position anywhere has the stress of a police officer, it is a completely different animal and for the type of person that shouldn’t be really doing it, it can be a huge problem. You know that but are to jealous of us to give a shit.
    You also know that whether or not I out into SS, I do not receive it into retirement. So yea..whether you like it or not that’s just the way it is.
    It seems as though you have some serious rape fantasies. Do you wish to be ravaged by a dominant male? Many feminists secretly do.
    While I certainly, most definitely am more of an alpha male than you could EVER handle, I regret to inform you that In general, I always treat women with the utmost respect, I have 2 daughters after all, and specifically, I would probably puke 🤢 at the thought of consenually trying to fulfill your fantasies. Rex Maybe? Not me. Hard pass.
    But seriously, as one of the few females I find your wording perculiar. I have never seen any male or female commentator use that expression on here. Ever. I’m no prude but I find it weird, as I would never in a million years force myself on anyone. If I kept using the word rape time after time and especially after another person requests a different expression, as you are the one saying that I am committing the financial penetration of a vagina or anus, I’m SURE you would find a problem with that. You appear at times to let your jealousy get the better of you and during those times, ALL on here would agree you are a low class individual.

    Reply

    • And as I like to say, I will hand deliver to you my first pension check. Personally. Right to your house. Just give me your address. Sorry, though NO fantasies, rape or otherwise will be carried out. 🤮🤮

      Reply

    • Posted by aka chicken little on October 22, 2019 at 7:54 pm

      ” Do you wish to be ravaged by a dominant male? Many feminists secretly do.”

      What’s your source on this? How do you know this? I also don’t think you are correct in adding motive for describing the police pay and benefit schedules as “rape”.

      It probably isn’t rhetorically sound to add controversial terminology to the argument. What it does is give the Constable an escape hatch. Instead of arguing pay,pension and benefit schedules, the Constable goes off on a psychological tangent.

      In “Ralph Breaks the Internet”, they said to never read the comments. I love reading the comments. Keep the comments coming.

      Reply

      • Posted by Anonymous on October 22, 2019 at 9:24 pm

        Does Ayn Rand qualify?

        Reply

        • Posted by aka chicken little on October 23, 2019 at 4:03 pm

          “Does Ayn Rand qualify?”

          If you give chapter and verse, probably. Without it, let’s just say that your scholarship is ….I’ll let you fill in the blank.

          Reply

      • Posted by Tough Love on October 22, 2019 at 9:25 pm

        Quoting ……………

        ” Instead of arguing pay,pension and benefit schedules, the Constable goes off on a psychological tangent. ”

        BINGO aka chicken little, you get the prize !

        Those who resist RIGHTFUL pension reform LOOK FOR ways/avenues to avoid addressing the issue and problem HEAD-ON. The ROOT CAUSE of the Public Sector pension mess spreading across America’s States and Cities is WITHOUT QUESTION, ludicrously excessive pension generosity, and the lack of full-funding is not the CAUSE but a CONSEQUENCE of that true root cause (excessive generosity).

        Reply

        • Posted by Anonymous on October 22, 2019 at 10:53 pm

          ¿”WITHOUT QUESTION” ?

          Illogical. Public pensions, generous or not, are in similar straights. Private plans with their more stringent rules, in much better shape, but, as the dog says, eighty percent funding at the top of a bull market is not doing well. The very well respected Dutch pensions have made necessary reforms since 2008, and are contemplating more.

          In California they like to blame SB400. SB400 is not the root cause of underfunded pensions in The Netherlands. (or California, totally)

          It’s called a global pension crisis.

          Reply

          • Posted by Tough Love on October 22, 2019 at 11:36 pm

            ANY pension no matter how generous (or how modest) can be fully funded if you throw ENOUGH money at it.

            But if VERY VERY generous (as are NJ Police pensions), the amount of money to do so is UNACCEPTABLY HIGH, routinely being 5, 10, 15+ times (depending on the investment earnings assumption) MORE costly than the retirement security granted comparably situated (in wages, age at retirement, and years of service) PRIVATE Sector workers.

            And as for PRIVATE Sector pensions ……… a good number of MEPs are in trouble, but as a group, single employer corporate-sponsored Private Sector Plans are doing well, with those in the Fortune 500 have a funding ratio in the mid-80s% …. using MUCH more conservative valuation assumptions than those used by PUBLIC Sector Plans in their valuations.

            So NO Stephen, it’s a problem for some MEP Plans (including some big ones), hardly a blip for single employer corporate-sponsored PRIVATE Sector Plans, but a BIG problem for MANY-to-MOST PUBLIC Sector Plans (when valued using appropriate assumptions).

          • Posted by Rex the Wonder Dog! on October 23, 2019 at 3:09 am

            In California they like to blame SB400. SB400 is not the root cause of underfunded pensions in The Netherlands.
            And NO ONE ever said it was the root cause of underfunded pensions in The Netherlands, it IS the root problem of under-funding in CA.

    • Posted by Anonymous on October 22, 2019 at 9:20 pm

      They are not all the same. I thought IBEW 237 was on the low side also. It is a small union, and may be in low cost area.

      My mother in-law at age 88 still draws a pension and health insurance from her deceased husband. And daughter’s father-in-law also seems to be living well from IBEW.

      If we could back up a few days…

      Tough Love October 19, 2019 at 11:59 pm

      “… Using my 6% assumption, the RATIO of taxpayer contributions to what THEY typically get in retirement security contributions from their employers is ………. 20.3%/3%= 6.77 TIMES greater”

      Except…

      “what THEY typically get in retirement security contributions from their employers is ……….” Not 3 percent, but 3 percent plus 6.2 percent for SS, plus 1.45 percent for Medicare.

      Internet math, Meh.

      Did I forget to say; It is invalid to compare pensions and benefits outside the context of total compensation?

      Reply

      • Posted by Tough Love on October 22, 2019 at 9:31 pm

        Quoting ………..

        “Except…

        “what THEY typically get in retirement security contributions from their employers is ……….” Not 3 percent, but 3 percent plus 6.2 percent for SS, plus 1.45 percent for Medicare.”

        Arguably ….. and assuredly, the Police Unions have DEMANDED that the 6.2% employer contribution that would otherwise go towards SS be included in their wages. From the looks of El gaupo’s compensation, THAT and way way MORE of it needs explanation.

        Reply

      • She knows. First off police around the world retire early. Second off we don’t get SS. Third off, cost of living is much higher here. Fourth off, she is just a jealous fool who has no other interest.
        @Stanley — ive made my position clear on my pension. I deserve every red cent. You wanna hitch yourself to that mare, be my guest. She is a class a bitch. She brought me up personally!!!! Comparing MY pension to a Midwest electrician who probably paid $100,000 for his house. And Earth once again puts her in her fucking place. Not me deflecting, her looking for a fight. Hates my salary and bennies. Too fucking bad.
        You know what I say to people like her?
        Fuck you, pay me. Lol😂😂
        One more thing— I’ve never once read on here that Bury thinks I’m over compensated.
        You two can get a room if u want and you can indulge her sexual fantasies.
        Stanley—you just as pathetic as she is if you buy what she’s selling. From a former military man no less.
        And just like male chauvinists usually are NOT in healthy relationships with women, feminists usually are not in healthy relationships with men. You must be a real Beta male Stanley. Better you than me. Let her pull out the strap on. Maybe denying climate change makes you feel tough? Nah. Just stupid maybe. She hates Trump too, Unlike you. Go back in the bjncker and take her with you.

        Reply

        • Once again if I didn’t make it clear TL/Stanley:

          Fuck you, pay me.

          Reply

        • Posted by Tough Love on October 22, 2019 at 9:54 pm

          Quoting El gaupo………….

          “She is a class a bitch. She brought me up personally!!!! Comparing MY pension to a Midwest electrician who probably paid $100,000 for his house.”

          Quoting from the article…………

          I.B.E.W. Local Union No. 237 Pension Plan out of Niagara Falls, NY
          —————————-

          Gee, I didn’t know that “Niagara Falls, NY” is in the Midwest…………… lol

          —————————

          Lot of “hate” in that comment, no ?

          Anger management issues ……… absolutely !

          Reply

        • Posted by aka chicken little on October 23, 2019 at 4:35 pm

          Constable: “You must be a real Beta male Stanley. Better you than me.”

          Did I write that you are incorrect on that? I just asked how you know, what is your source. Did you read it in some women’s magazines? A psychology textbook? The kids reported it at dinner last night? I don’t have a lot of contact with people so I have to rely on you guys on the front lines to tell me what’s going on. When you take ladies into custody, do they give a report on their latest fantasies? I’ll check Smoking Gun to keep up on this.

          Reply

        • Posted by PS Drone on October 23, 2019 at 8:34 pm

          EG – in 25 words or less can you please tell me (not TL or Stanley) exactly why you “deserve” your 70% pension at age 55, plus free medical for life? I know you are scheduled to get it and you think the funds will be there to pay it, but really–why exactly do you “deserve” it? And don’t tell me how dangerous it is to be an LEO in Bergen County. Thanks in advance. BTW, how are the Yanks doing?

          Reply

          • #1– I think you know how our beloved Yankees are doing. Licking their wounds. Encarnacion should never again wear a yankee uniform.

            #2– (25 words or less).
            I am no different from you. You deserve anything and everything that you were able to negotiate with your employer, I’m sure that you would……

            Sorry. I tried. #29 and beyond— ….not for one minute think that I would be correct in saying that you don’t deserve whatever you earn, whether negotiated with your boss or if self employed, whatever money you could bring in. Unless you broke the law or made your money doing something really awful and crummy, like researching Beauty products on bunnies.
            Even Encarnacion should be paid what his contract says he should. Why should I be any different? TL and I BOTH agree that police services cost the average suburbian about $3 a day. Not a break breaker. So if it is loosely established that my salary and bennies and that of police in general aren’t putting folks in the poor house, why am I not free to be compensated whatever my employer and I agree upon, but you are?
            Quite candidly, it is NOT my place to say you don’t deserve to get paid whatever it is that you get paid. It is also not your place to say what I get paid. You need to trust that your elected representatives will do right by you. When it comes to policing, they aren’t far off from that. Every PD in the country has early retirement and pensions. And if anything, I’ve advocated for a slight increase in the retirement age to 57. As well as sick time payments and disability pension frauds. I’m really not that unreasonable compared to some. And many taxpayers aren’t either. You do have to admit that TL seems to have something personal against me or police/public employees in general. And you have to at least give me credit for coming on here and giving a contrasting viewpoint from your own or even worse you know who.

      • Posted by Tough Love on October 22, 2019 at 9:47 pm

        Stephen,

        No matter your song and dance, you still can’t get past Dr. Biggs AEI Study results that ………. on a TOTAL COMPENSATION basis …….. shows that in both our home States of CA and NJ, PUBLIC Sector workers have a 23%-of-pay ADVANTAGE .

        And ………. Dr Biggs excluded Safety workers in his study. Because Police are the highest paid/pensioned/benefitted of all Public Sector workers (perhaps with the exception of Judges), had they been INCLUDED, that 23% would assuredly have been materially higher.

        Reply

        • He excluded police because we have no private sector comparison. So I’ll clean it up a little for you:
          Shut up and pay me😂😂😂

          Even Biggs thinks we deserve what we get.

          Reply

          • Posted by Tough Love on October 22, 2019 at 9:58 pm

            SHOW the readers (with a link) where he stated that.

          • By leaving us out of his study. Including us would’ve made the percentages go up. And fwiw, quote me anytime.
            What would you tell me if all I did all day every day is tell you that you made too money and you didn’t deserve it and that you were the epitome of greed and that you would be smiling ear to ear if my pension was cut? Sometimes you get a laugh or an eye roll, sometimes you a rated R response. Deal with it—as you like to say.

          • As earth says— don’t be invalid. You are comparing apples to oranges.

          • Posted by Tough Love on October 22, 2019 at 10:18 pm

            Quoting El gaupo re his pension ………. above – October 22, 2019 at 9:49 pm

            “Fuck you, pay me.”

          • Posted by Anonymous on October 22, 2019 at 11:22 pm

            “He excluded police because we have no private sector comparison.”

            “We exclude public safety employees because their work conditions, which may include both
            threats to life and limb, differ from other government workers and from private-sector employees in general.”
            Adam Biggs

            Close enough.

            “Even Biggs thinks we deserve what we get.”

            I’ve never heard him deny it. He did specifically claim teachers were overpaid, but take that with grain also.

            Josh Rauh said there is no private sector comparison, so a policeman or firefighter is worth whatever can be negotiated (with realistic valuations of pensions and benefits, of course.)

            Some might say the value has been, and will be determined by the market when benefit reductions result in difficulty in attracting and retaining qualified employees.

            Time will tell.

          • Posted by Tough Love on October 22, 2019 at 11:48 pm

            Sorry Stephen Douglas, but Dr, Biggs NOT going out of his way to affirmatively state that Police do NOT “deserve” their very rich pensions ……….. is MILES and MILE ………. different from him affirmatively saying that they DO deserve it.

            And you know it………… get a grip on the BS.

          • Posted by Anonymous on October 23, 2019 at 12:28 am

            LOL!

            I won’t run through the archives, but you once claimed the actuaries who read this blog agreed with your cockamamie theory because no one wrote in to contradict it.
            ———————-
            Posted by PatB on April 17, 2016 at 11:50 pm

            Of the actuaries and accountants who must read this blog, I can remember no one defending your math. Maybe this is the time for them to come to your rescue, for the sake of truth, which there seems to be so little of in public pensions.

            ——————————-
            Has anyone ever defended your math?

          • Posted by Tough Love on October 23, 2019 at 12:46 am

            Stephen,

            I know how I write. I may have stated that I have read no contradictions from actuaries, but I’m quite certain that I never extended that to say (or mean) that such LACK of a contradiction constitutes affirmative agreement.

            You’re an idiot.
            ————————-

            PatB, who wrote that is one of you “moochers”, so why would such a comment surprise me or be meaningful ?

            One is not WRONG because nobody has affirmed that they are CORRECT. Give that some though.

            Again, you’re an idiot.

          • Posted by Rex the Wonder Dog! on October 23, 2019 at 3:13 am

            He excluded police because we have no private sector comparison.
            Yes there are comparisons. You are NO different than any other semi-skilled trades person. Roofer, electrician, carpenter… That is the exact comparison to the private sector. A GED job that is semi-skilled occupation. You are NOT a professional, GED cop is not a “profession”. You have an “occupation”.

          • Lol. You’re grasping TL. Not one professional has come on here to back up YOUR claim that police have it to good. Not one!!! Are they afraid to come on an anonymous forum because of police unions? Once again, Stephen is right. Your clan is the so called “beleaguered taxpayer” who doesn’t get a pension. In reality, anyone who can afford a house where I live is doing pretty well and the $60 a so a year they put into PFRS is next to nothing for them. The folks bitch hard like you do either have bigger fininacial problems than being able to afford their taxes or they are just jealous.
            And Rex in all my years, I have never heard anyone, even the ardent cheap skate or liberal anti police social justice warrior use the term “law enforcement occupation”. It is most certainly thought by anyone with half a brain as a profession. Even those that hate us for reasons other or in additional to our pension.
            So check out TL comment from last night at 949pm. 🙄
            Now head upstairs, mommy has your farina almost ready!!!

          • Posted by Rex the Wonder Dog! on October 23, 2019 at 12:10 pm

            And Rex in all my years, I have never heard anyone, even the ardent cheap skate or liberal anti police social justice warrior use the term “law enforcement occupation”.
            A “Profession” REQUIRES, as in mandates, a college degree and in the majority of cases an advanced graduate degree. ANY job that does not require a college degree, that in fact requires NO education or training at hire, is by its very nature, an “occupation”. You have an “occupation”. LEO is “occupation”.

          • Posted by Rex the Wonder Dog! on October 23, 2019 at 12:14 pm

            Stephen,

            Again, you’re an idiot.
            Oh the humanity!

  6. Posted by MJ on October 23, 2019 at 6:40 am

    I just love how the term “under funded” keeps getting thrown around….under funded as in there is no money to fully fund???

    Why wouldn’t the politicians “fully fund” the pensions???BC there is no money and there never will be enough money to fully fund

    I consider the term “under funded” a euphemism for “no money”

    IMO there are way too many people both public and private getting lifetime pensions. How can anybody promise a “lifetime” of anything

    It’s laughable….

    Reply

    • To be fair MJ, it was certainly not teachers and pers employees that have routinely either out nothing or next to nothing in the funds. For a few years they did. Contrast that with PFRS which has never allowed a pension holiday for employees and only did for three years for the employer (and charged interest in paybacks for those three years). Why? Because when the rubber meets the road, you get your money’s worth out of your boys in blue. Let TL stew in her own juices. You get a pretty damn good bang for your buck with the police. 24/7 protection for about $3 a day all inclusive.
      She really thinks all these politicians on both sides should turn on us. Lol. Many do!!! For different reasons. And even they don’t advocate for pension cuts!!!! She thinks you would have effective law enforcement with no pension. Bullshit. Many guys CAN’T wait to get to 25. So they can get out because it is a tough thankless job. Yes because of the pension of course, but we hear this from cops witb only 5 or 6 years on. They are already sick of being Monday morning quarterbacked and having folks still complain about their salary as well as their performance. Most folks are good people MJ. But we have no shortage of shit birds out there.
      TL thinks so kid gonna sacrifice for 35 years and no pension. She makes a mistake, no one dies. Many times when a cop does, it impacts lives forever. She still hasn’t addressed the fact that the early retirement is for guys stressed out. She says “oh we need to get rid of the crazies in law enforcement, anger management etc” (paraphrasing) but fails to address the unconscionable high rate of suicide in the profession. There is no comparison in the public or private sector to being a cop. Not a roofer. Not a therapist. Not a teacher and certainly not a financial rapist who cons leople out of money under the guise of giving a shit about them. Lol. Yea. She makes the world go around. A legend in her OWN mind.

      Reply

      • Posted by Tough Love on October 23, 2019 at 9:00 am

        $3/day per household for Police is just about what I come up with ………. but as I’ve stated before, a per/day metric is useless because there is no reference to what a “reasonable” abount is.

        The CORRECT measure should be a comparison of your total compensation to what Private Sector workers (in jobs with reasonably comparable experience, education, skills, and knowledge) get in total compensation from their employers.

        And on THAT measure, you are VASTLY overcompensated.

        ——————

        Quoting …………..

        “TL thinks so kid gonna sacrifice for 35 years and no pension. ”

        lol …………. yeah, like the 99% of the PRIVATE Sector !

        You live in an alternate reality.

        Reply

        • Lol. Not in the line of police work. Lots of the guys can’t wait to get out as it is. Again, what causes the high rate of suicide? You don’t feel that stress has something to with that?
          You don’t get to decide what I make. Your opinion really doesn’t count. Run for office and it might. But all you ever do is complain. Supply and demand is the barometer used to determine my pay. There is no comparison to any job in the private sector. Deal with it. Stop being so jealous all the time. Not healthy.

          Reply

          • And by the way….you would never get the level of protection you are afforded in your community for less than $3 a day from any private sector business. Profit motive involved. We agree on the $3 number so that kinda means you are a cheap fuck who wants something for nothing. Oh well, check the post from yesterday at 942 pm. Says it all. You would say the same thing to me if all I did was rag on you. You’re jealous and have never denied it. You also never told me exactly what you do for a living, but it must not be that lucrative if $3 a day is too much for you to have a police force. You honestly should do a ride along with your department or educate yourself as to what the profession truly entails. How much work it is processed domestic violence calls etc. before u mouth off. Otherwise as Stephen says your opinion is invalid.

          • Posted by Tough Love on October 23, 2019 at 8:09 pm

            El gaupo,

            Lets be clear, that $3/day is from each of (typically 2,000 to 6,000) households in a NJ town.

            Call it the middle #, 4,000 so that’s $3 x 4,000 = $12,000/day for Police protection.

            Ran the numbers ……. a town with 4,000 household would have about 25 Officers in total, with just about 5 on the average (8-hr) shift.

            So what do we have ?

            5 Officers x 3 shifts = 15 officer working each day for a total Police cost of $12,000. So another way to look a the cost of Police protection is that can be translated into $12,000/15 = $800 per officer PER DAY.

            Doesn’t sound so cheap anymore.

            Don’t like my unit of measure? Well, I don’t like yours.
            ————————-

            I’d STILL like to hear the justification for YOUR total annual compensation of about $250K annually. Private Sector workers with such total annual compensation typically have a GREAT DEAL more DIFFICULT TO OBTAIN education, skills, and knowledge than Police.

            You’re not as “special” and “deserving” of MORE (WAY more per you) as you think.

            And saying (re your pension) ……….. per YOUR quote from yesterday ………. “Fuck You, Pay Me” ….. won’t make that happen, noting that Local PFRS is about 50% SHORT of the funds it should have IN-HAND-NOW if your Plan was valued PROPERLY, using the SAME assumptions & methodology required of Private Sector Plans in their DB pension valuations.

          • Your numbers are a little high. I earn about $600 a day and I am at/near the top of the scale for the whole dept. Many make half that or even less. Don’t be invalid. And again, I deserve what I negotiate with my employer. No different than you. Again I ask, what specifically is it that you do and what do you earn? Or is this just the pick on El Gaupo show. Forcing me to say once again “FUPM”

          • Posted by Rex the Wonder Dog! 🐶🐶🐶🦴🦴🦴 on October 24, 2019 at 1:11 am

            And again, I deserve what I negotiate with my employer.
            You do NOT “negotiate” with an employer because you are NOT employed in a free market.

            You are in a fixed monopoly, not the free market where there is “negotiation”. The employment correct term is you “conspire” with “politicians” for your salary and benefits. Last, be very thankful you’re not a kat EG!
            🐶🐶🐶🦴🦴🦴

        • Posted by Anonymous on October 23, 2019 at 4:11 pm

          “TL thinks so kid gonna sacrifice for 35 years and no pension. ”

          lol …………. yeah, like the 99% of the PRIVATE Sector !

          99% of the private sector has no pension?

          Starting to exaggerate like the dog, now.

          Reply

          • Posted by Rex the Wonder Dog! 🐶🐶🐶🦴🦴🦴 on October 23, 2019 at 5:48 pm

            99% of the private sector has no pension?
            Starting to exaggerate like the dog, now.

            Actually 99.99999999999999999% of the private sector have no defined benefit pension. If there is a 401K match, BIG IF, it is usually maxed out at a measly 3% of salary.
            🐶🐶🐶🦴🦴🦴

          • Posted by Anonymous on October 23, 2019 at 6:41 pm

            National Compensation Survey for 2018

            Private-sector workers. (118 million full and part-time workers):

            Percentage of private-sector workers participating in a workplace retirement plan:51

            Percentage of private-sector workers participating in a pension plan:13

            Percentage of private-sector workers participating in a retirement savings plan:47

            Percentage of private-sector workers participating in a retirement plan who are in a pension plan:26*  

            *(15.3 million workers. Pension Rights Center calculations based on NCS data.)

          • Posted by Tough Love on October 23, 2019 at 8:16 pm

            Quoting …………

            “Percentage of private-sector workers participating in a pension plan:13”

            PUBLIC Sector workers get the RICH version ….. Defined Benefit pensions….. and with the richest of formula-factors and provisons (such a very young retirement ages).

            Most Private Sector workers who are currently accruing benefits in a “pension” are NOT in DB Plans but in MUCH less rich “Cash Balance” pensions. The small % still accruing benefits in a DB pension, are in pensions with MUCH Less-Rich formulas & provisions.

            ——————

            Now I’m I surprised that you mislead the readers again ?

            No.

          • Posted by Rex the Wonder Dog! 🐶🐶🐶🦴🦴🦴 on October 24, 2019 at 1:03 am

            Percentage of private-sector workers participating in a workplace retirement plan:51
            A “retirement plan” is not a DB “pension plan”.
            BAM, Dougie and his spin gets shot down again.
            🐶🐶🐶🦴🦴🦴

            Percentage of private-sector workers participating in a workplace retirement plan: 51
            Percentage of private-sector workers participating in a pension plan: 13
            Percentage of private-sector workers participating in a retirement savings plan: 47

      • Posted by Rex the Wonder Dog! on October 23, 2019 at 5:45 pm

        You get a pretty damn good bang for your buck with the police. 24/7 protection for about $3 a day all inclusive.
        El Guapo, one thing I constantly see from you is the fact that you love to toot your OWN horn! You are over compensated for your job skill set. Your entire compensation should be, at MOST, on par with private sector trades people, electricians,roofer, carpenter, plumber, etc…Since you have bullet proof job security and year round employment I question if you should even be paid on par with trades people.
        🐶🐶🐶🦴🦴🦴

        Reply

        • I have to toot it loud and often to drown out your nonsense. I guess you have little idea what tradesfolk out in these parts make. Plumbers and electricians, hvac etc charge well north of $100 an hour and those in unions make around $60 or so plus bennies. My straight pay is about $75 an hour plus bennies.
          If you really want to get my thoughts on things, see TL repost from 942 last evening. 4 simple words. Lol.
          PS how was the farina mommy made this morning?
          Have you found a job yet? Maybe one that’ll give you 3% DC match?

          Reply

          • Posted by aka chicken little on October 23, 2019 at 7:31 pm

            And another thing Constable. I haven’t been especially critical of your pension and benefit package. Because you will be damned lucky if you collect even half of promised pension benefits. Sorry buddy, but keep those alternative asset plans funded.

          • Nah…if I was a betting man, and I am, I would predict that PFRS will last longer than you think and probably longer than we will. Lol. Now go enjoy the World Series. Go Nats!!!

    • Posted by Anonymous on October 23, 2019 at 2:14 pm

      “IMO there are way too many people both public and private getting lifetime pensions. How can anybody promise a “lifetime” of anything.”

      Or maybe too few. Equalizing lifetime income is a natural human tendency. Younger workers borrow, for a house, car, education, etc. because they know, or assume their income will grow toward middle age. Even as they are paying off those early loans, they begin saving for retirement, when they know income from productive work will decrease or cease altogether. Pensions are an important part of that cycle.

      Higher income people may be able to amass enough capital to see them comfortably (or even luxuriously) through life, and even leave some for their children. The poorest can probably survive on Social Security and/or some form of welfare. (Actually, more than “probably”, most have no choice.)

      For many in the middle, a “lifetime pension” is the alternative. This could be provided by an annuity; but if an insurance company or financial institution can “promise a “lifetime” of anything”, why can an employer not promise the same thing, with proper safeguards enforced by government?

      And what is the alternative? Working cradle to grave? I believe that was part of the justification for DB pensions to begin with; to move older workers out and make room for more productive younger workers. It is often to the benefit of the employer, public or private, and worth the expense. The “cost” of a pension to the employer is debatable anyway. Compensation is fungible. An employer could offer higher wages to attract workers, or offer lower wages combined with a pension. Deferred compensation.

      It’s not laughable.

      Reply

      • Posted by Rex the Wonder Dog! 🐶🐶🐶🦴🦴🦴 on October 23, 2019 at 5:49 pm

        An employer could offer higher wages to attract workers, or offer lower wages combined with a pension. Deferred compensation.
        TY Captain Obvious 🤔

        Reply

        • Posted by Anonymous on October 24, 2019 at 1:28 pm

          Explain that to Mr. Love. Just because one worker has a higher pension, that does not mean his pension is “excessive”. Lower wages may be offset by a higher pension, and vice versa.

          It is invalid to compare pensions outside the context of total compensation.

          Reply

          • And mr love also has to realize that you would not have 5 officers on a typical midnight shift for a town witb 4,000 homes. We have just under 3,000 and we roll with 2 guys in most Mids. Once again her math is off.

          • Posted by Tough Love on October 25, 2019 at 12:51 am

            Lol ………. then the p[er-household cost per Officer would be even HIGHER (because I would now be dividing a fixed cost by fewer workers).

            Thanks for pointing that out !

      • Posted by aka chicken little on October 23, 2019 at 7:28 pm

        “For many in the middle, a “lifetime pension” is the alternative. This could be provided by an annuity; but if an insurance company or financial institution can “promise a…”

        Steve, you are laughable, a consistent joke. And I love the irony. You whine that people need a secure retirement while you advocate the politics and economics that make it impossible. You are just about as silly as Tim the guy with the magic beans. Grow up and study Mises to start with.

        Reply

        • I wanted to take the Nats so bad in this series but I didn’t have the balls to against Houston. I really thought the Nats would play well, but was afraid Cole and Verlander would outpitch Sherzer and Strasbourg.
          I would’ve cleaned up because the Astros were such heavily favored. I didn’t feel that the line was a fair one. Money to made by picking Nats. I just had cold feet I guess.

          Reply

          • Posted by aka chicken little on October 24, 2019 at 11:55 am

            So far it’s a gas. It has to be pure embarrassment for Cole and Verlander. Verlander did pitch respectably yesterday, but he wasn’t quite good enough. Pressly just couldn’t get the ball over the plate. A little nervousness there I guess.
            I don’t remember seeing such a terrible blowup as that. Kind of sad to see a good team blow the big one. I wonder if they’ll start Grienke in game 3. I wouldn’t.

          • What other choice do they have…but I agree. Grienke will melt down on the road in Washington. Although he did pitch well under horrible abuse in the Bronx. I see this series ending in Washington, but wouldn’t put money on it. Wish I did and could but I saw the Astros in the alcs. If the Astros lose Friday you will see Cole on short rest for game 4. No doubt.

  7. Posted by Tough Love on October 23, 2019 at 10:01 pm

    Quoting Stephen Douglas ……………

    “For many in the middle, a “lifetime pension” is the alternative. This could be provided by an annuity; but if an insurance company or financial institution can “promise a “lifetime” of anything”, why can an employer not promise the same thing, with proper safeguards enforced by government?”

    Public Sector pension administrators (or actuaries reporting to them) “price” the cost of the pensions they grant assuming that they will earn 7%-8, IGNORING the cost of the inherent investment risk that things may not work out …… because they can FORCE a 3-rd part sucker (the Taxpayers) to make up for bad outcomes.

    That “insurance company or financial institution” will “price” the cost of the annuity that they write assuming that they will earn about 3%, RECOGNIZING the cost of the inherent risk that things may not work out …. because there exists no 3-rd part sucker that they can FORCE to make up for bad outcomes.
    —————————-

    If Public Sector pensions were priced using that 3% rate, for the SAME contribution amount, the pensions promised would be 50+% LOWER in value ………. via lower formula factors, older retirement ages, NON-subsidized early retirement factors, NOT granting phony “disability” retirements, NEVER including “DROP” Plans, and rarely (if ever) including COLA increases. Heck, they might even start to look like the DB pension Plans granted the lucky few Private Sector workers still accruing benefits in such Plans.

    Reply

  8. Posted by Anonymous on October 23, 2019 at 11:05 pm

    Thank you, sir. I have never purchased an annuity.

    What if…
    I purchased the same annuity in 1999?
    1989?
    What about my past supervisor who retired in 1979? How much would his annuity cost, compared to a CalPERS pension? (In a 10 percent interest rate world.)
    What about my last supervisor, who will likely retire in 2030-35?

    Ed Ring…

    “And because risk in a defined benefit fund is shared across generations of workers, during eras when investment returns are low, existing workers guarantee extra cash coming into the plan to keep it solvent, and during eras when investment returns are high, surpluses are fed into the pension fund that can also be used to make up the shortfall during lean years.”

    It’s a brave new world. I don’t recall whining about secure retirement. I do recall advocating pension reform. Real pension reform, not knee jerk pension reduction. And yes, I do still advocate secure pensions for life. Where necessary, current pensions should be honored, and most “reforms” should fall on new employees. Which may include increased salaries to make up for pension losses.

    Reply

    • Posted by Tough Love on October 23, 2019 at 11:54 pm

      Stephen,

      The Annuity writer will “price” their annuities based on the interest environment AT THE TIME …………… but very CONSERVATIVELY.

      Public Sector Pension Administrators “price” their pensions based on the interest environment AT THE TIME …………… but very AGGRESSIVELY*

      * Again, because THEY (but not the Annuity writer) can and do IGNORE the inherent “risks” of investing because they have a 3-rd party “sucker” (the Taxpayers) whom they can FORCE to make up for bad investment outcomes.

      Clear Enough ?
      ———————–

      Quoting for your quoting of Ed Ring…………..

      “and during eras when investment returns are high, surpluses are fed into the pension fund that can also be used to make up the shortfall during lean years”

      Theoretically yes, but in the real world it doesn’t work that way. When pension investment earning are high, the Unions demand benefit increases (applied BOTH prospectively and retroactively) and our self-serving, contribution-solicitng, vote-selling, taxpayer-betraying Elected Officials allways give in. Y

      You should know, isn’t CA’s SB400 a good example of that, and heavily contributing to the pension mess CA is now in ?
      ———————————-

      Quoting ………… “I do recall advocating pension reform. Real pension reform, not knee jerk pension reduction. ”

      Baloney, to you (and almost all others on the receiving end of these excessive Public Sector pensions) anything more than a PITTANCE in reductions falls under your category of “knee jerk pension reduction”.

      Reply

  9. Posted by Anonymous on October 24, 2019 at 7:20 pm

    “Baloney, to you (and almost all others on the receiving end of these excessive Public Sector pensions)…”

    Baloney to you, too. Nationwide, most Public Sector pensions are not excessive at all, and never were.

    A “50% reduction in future accruals for all public workers is insane…a “knee jerk pension reduction”.

    Reductions in many pension formulas for new employees are substantial, coupled with increased contributions for all employees.

    This includes reductions for hundreds of thousands of public employees who were never overpaid or over-pensioned to begin with.

    https://calpensions.com/2014/05/05/calpers-report-pay-hike-to-offset-pension-cuts/

    Reply

  10. Posted by Tough Love on October 24, 2019 at 10:07 pm

    Quoting Stephen Douglas …………

    “Baloney to you, too. Nationwide, most Public Sector pensions are not excessive at all, and never were. ”

    WOW …… what have you been smoking ?
    ———————————–

    Quoting ……….

    “A “50% reduction in future accruals for all public workers is insane ……. ”

    Reducing Public Sector worker pensions by 50% of their current VERY HIGH “value” (due to high formula factors, young retirement ages, subsidized early retirement factors, phony “disability” retirements, “DROP” Plans, and COLA increases) would for most, STILL leave them with pensions much greater than the retirement security typically granted comparable PRIVATE Sector workers by their employers.

    That’s not “insane” …….. it’s just and NECESSARY.

    And no, the small difference in (lower) wages (where it even exists) doesn’t come even remotely close to justifying such extraordinarily generous, and hence COSTLY pensions.

    Reply

  11. Posted by Anonymous on October 25, 2019 at 3:19 pm

    With all the usual disclaimers, nationwide, private sector BA level employees were paid 22 percent more in wages than those in the public sector. ($62,823 vs $51,578).

    Private sector MA level employees were paid 31 percent more in wages than the public sector. ($82,319 vs $62,834)

    A 22 percent wage advantage is no small difference. 31 percent is an even bigger advantage.

    In each case, the total compensation was deemed roughly equal (+/- 5 percent) by Biggs.

    “Reducing Public Sector worker pensions by 50%… …would for most, STILL leave them with pensions much greater than the retirement security typically granted comparable PRIVATE Sector workers by their employers.”

    True,

    Butt…

    It would still leave their total compensation far below the private sector.

    You know what they say about comparing pensions.

    Context.

    Reply

    • Posted by Tough Love on October 25, 2019 at 4:48 pm

      Quoting …………….

      “With all the usual disclaimers, nationwide, private sector BA level employees were paid 22 percent more in wages than those in the public sector. ($62,823 vs $51,578).

      Private sector MA level employees were paid 31 percent more in wages than the public sector. ($82,319 vs $62,834)”

      (1) Provide a link to your source

      (2) Equal Educational level is NOT the same as a in Equal job requiring equal education, experience, skills, and knowledge. The latter should determine compensation, not the the Degree.

      (3) Getting a Masters in “Education” as opposed to the underlying subject field (e.g., math, biology, chemistry, physics, etc.) is consider VERY VERY easy ….. and is not comparable to those in the Private Sector with a Masters in specific subject (ESPECIALLY the STEM) field.

      Reply

      • Sigh…full disclosure. I want both my daughters to be involved in the stem field. Absolutely. They are both in honors classes, get very good grades, got good SAT scores etc. I’m proud of them. Definitely don’t want them to be cops, and they don’t want to be, however I would support them of course. But…
        Plumbers and electricians make more than many folks do with a bachelors and sometimes masters degree. Cops do too. That’s just the way it works. Supply and demand!!! The chemist isn’t going to fix your busted pipe at 3am. Nor will he come and arrest your abusive ex boyfriend who is violating his restraint order by assaulting you. Nor will he wire your new addition on your home. Nor will he find the leak in your AC unit when it is 100 outside and best more Freon in your system. Nor will he respond to your house when your loved one isn’t breathing. There is enough demand for those sort of things that guys make a decent living doing it. Too each their own. Don’t look in my bowl unless you are checking to see if I have enough to eat.

        Reply

        • Posted by Tough Love on October 26, 2019 at 1:37 pm

          Nice diversion ………….

          That an MA degree in “Education” is MUCH MUCH easier to obtain than an MA (or MS) in the underlying Subject Matter Field ….. and that that difference appropriately SHOULD BE factored into the determination of compensation for “Education” MAs vs “Subject Matter” MAs…………. has NOTHING to do with the fact that the skilled trades of Plumbing and Electrician pay well.
          ———————————-

          By the way, it’s an interesting dance watching the 2 of you (You and Stephen Douglas) religiously support each other positions ……….. 2 “moochers” protecting their turf.

          Reply

          • No. We both know you’re a jealous buffoon is all

          • Posted by Rex the Wonder Dog! 🐶🐶🐶🦴🦴🦴 on October 28, 2019 at 12:45 am

            By the way, it’s an interesting dance watching the 2 of you (You and Stephen Douglas) religiously support each other positions ……….. 2 “moochers”…
            EG, I support you and Stephen, including the “mooching” 🙂

          • Posted by Tough Love on October 28, 2019 at 9:48 am

            lol, was that “mooching” or “smooching” ?

        • Posted by Rex the Wonder Dog! 🐶🐶🐶🦴🦴🦴 on October 27, 2019 at 3:21 am

          Plumbers and electricians make more than many folks do with a bachelors and sometimes masters degree. Cops do too. That’s just the way it works. Supply and demand!!!
          I doubt a plumber or electrician would make more than a private sector employee with a BA. If it were based on supply and demand then they definitely wouldn’t make as much as there are far fewer employees with a 4 year degree than a HS diploma.

          As for GED cop, the LEO, and firewhiner, makes more today, but this is a recent phenomenon. Just the last 20 years. Prior to 1990-2000 LEO made less than a degreed private sector employee. And if the LEO compensation had free market forces in place today they would make far less than they do currently.
          🐶🐶🐶🦴🦴🦴
          🐶🐶🐶🦴🦴🦴
          🐶🐶🐶🦴🦴🦴

          Reply

      • Posted by MJ on October 27, 2019 at 8:51 am

        TL…let’s not forget that the school district (the taxpayers) pay for that teacher’s masters degree and then that’s an automatic pay boost even though that teacher is not doing anything differently or teaching anything other than the already prescribed curriculum

        Reply

        • Posted by Tough Love on October 27, 2019 at 10:23 am

          Very true, although to be fair, I would assume that a teacher that gets a MS in a STEM field does bring some of that added knowledge into the classroom.

          I believe that a MA in Education brings little to nothing into the classroom, especially since from what I have read, a teacher’s teaching-ability peaks out with 5-7 year of service………. meaning that they don’t get any “better” after that duration.

          Reply

          • Uhh….TL can u set Rex straight as to the cost of a good tradesman here and how they usually avoid the unemployment line if they are any good, and how many with just a BA don’t make as much

          • Posted by Tough Love on October 27, 2019 at 9:15 pm

            El gaupo,

            When it comes to Electricians and especially Plumbers, there needs to be a distinction between the BUSINESS OWNER with the LICENSE and their employees. Consumers of Electrical or Plumbing services indeed pay high hourly rates …………. easily over $100/hr where I live, but how much does the “plumber-employee” that comes to your house get paid? Likely less than half that. THAT is what should be compared to other workers get paid, whether cops, those with BAs, etc.

            Also, some Licensed Plumbing contractors are very small businesses, with an owner, say his son and one helper. In this case, the “family” is indeed keeping almost all of the income billed. But MOST (where I live) are operations with 10 15, 20 Plumber trucks roaming around. In the latter case, most of those called “plumbers” are really non-licensed employees (who clearly know plumbing) who work as employees of the licensed Business Owner…. and make far less than the $100+/hr we pay for profession plumbing service….. to the Business Owner.

    • Private sector MA level employees were paid 31 percent more in wages than the public sector. ($82,319 vs $62,834)

      A 22 percent wage advantage is no small difference. 31 percent is an even bigger advantage.
      Now add in the 100%++ MORE $$ in BENEFITS Baby Einstein. Actually for cop and firewhiner benefits add up to more than 150% of salary, far more than cash salary. Pensions alone, using a real discount rate, cost more than base cash salary (for cop/FF)…Time off (vacation 21-40 days+sick 12 days+holidays 13-14 days) boosts comp by 30%-35% of base cash salary….. Job security boosts that trough feeder job by another 25% at least. DOUBLE and TRIPLE the public sector base cash “salary” to get the full view of their “compensation”. OT, can also double and triple the cash base salary. You NEVER see anything even close to this is the real world …

      Reply

      • Posted by Becky on December 26, 2019 at 4:27 pm

        Oh yes there is young grasshopper. Take a look at the latest IAW GM contract: Full health about 32/hr for line workers . Skilled workers much higher. Holidays alone: Dec 23-Jan 3 for Christmas. Day after Easter, Good Friday the whole shebang. Four year contract 66 holidays total with 9-11000 bonus after signing. language in the contract that will knock your X-mas socks off. let’s buy a new CHEVY

        Reply

  12. Posted by MJ on October 27, 2019 at 8:49 am

    Rex, I beg to differ, plumbers and electricians, etc. do extremely well for themselves in my neck of the woods. Lots of need for good tradespeople with kids graduating today with BAs in nonsense subjects and tons of debt, I highly doubt that the private sector jobs they find are paying what a skilled tradesperson makes…just my opinion but I know what I pay my electrician and HVAC guy and it’s not cheap.

    As far as the cops, if a cop is a good one and a well trained one then what does it matter if there is a BA degree? If we want the cops living in our higher end neighborhoods then we need to pay a decent living wage with health benefits. All the early retirement and pension nonsense is another story but def need to pay a decent living wage as they have families and are part of our communities.

    Reply

    • Posted by Tough Love on October 27, 2019 at 10:35 am

      Agree …………. pay a fair WAGE (based on job risks, and education, experience, skills and knowledge that they bring to the table), provide active workers family healthcare coverage with a Taxpayer contribution towards the Plan’s total cost equal to what the Private Sector employers contribute towards their employee’s healthcare, end the DB pensions and any subsidized retiree healthcare, and give them a DC pension contribution COMPARABLE to what Private Sector Taxpayers typically get in Retirement Security (most often via a 401K Plan) from their employers.

      The swell heads and HUGH BS that they are deserving of “more” (WAY “more”) needs to end.

      Reply

      • @TL. One last time. Supply and demand and what one can negotiate as his /her pay determines everything in this country.
        In other words, f you pay me. 😎
        You have NO say. Just these dopey opinions. Lol. Grow up put on your big girl pants and run for office. Or move. Only two ways you gonna avoid paying NJ property taxes or be in a position to cut them.
        Outside of you stupid stock lazy mans answer of “we pay your salary”, why shouldn’t I get what I can negotiate with my employer as opposed to some fictional average that YOU feel is appropriate based on your fictional laundry list of criteria? You don’t have that restriction do you? Hmmm.
        Yea I’ll just go with, fuck you pay me as my stock retort 🤣

        Reply

        • Posted by Tough Love on October 27, 2019 at 9:25 pm

          lol ………… ONE last time ……….

          PUBLIC Sector workers are NOT “special” and deserving of a better deal (a MUCH MUCH MUCH better deal for Police) than that granted comparablely situated PRIVATE Sector workers ………. and all on the Taxpayers’ Dime.

          You can say ………… “Fuck You, Pay Me” ……………. all you like and it doesn’t mean a thing. At some point, the Taxpayers WILL find a way NOT TO.

          Reply

          • No they want. They will always want good cops for the towns.
            And it does not make me special to have the same ability that you do to attempt to better yourself through negotiations with your employer. You should have NO say at all, and don’t, in what I make. I’ll take the pension, the bennies, the generous salary, and all the other perks and sleep quite well. I am blessed TL. I know that. And I keep telling, let’s meet for coffee and I’ll give you my first pension check.

          • Posted by Tough Love on October 28, 2019 at 9:45 am

            Yeah, if it please you El gaupo,…………….. you call them “negotiations”. I call them a “bad joke” perpetrated upon the Taxpayers.

    • Early retirement is no nonsense MJ. Look at the suicide risk and effectiveness of 60 year old who never got promoted. It is a young mans game.

      Reply

      • Posted by Rex the Wonder Dog! 🐶🐶🐶🦴🦴🦴 on October 27, 2019 at 12:54 pm

        No, it is not a “young mans game”. It is an entire tribe of crybabies who want to stop working 30% sooner than everyone else but have everyone else PAY for it. There are plenty of jobs the GED cop can do if he does not want to stay in patrol. Like dispatch, school resource officer, K-6 crossing guard … Or painting the curbs. I will find something useful for you to do from age 60-66.

        Reply

        • Lol. Yea ok. Outside of the SRO, those jobs you make pay one fifth of a police officers job. You lost me as credible when you didn’t think the plumbers made more than an average BA degree out here. It is different here. You’d never hack it in mommy’s basement. I wish I can say fuck you, pay me….but you don’t live here. Lol. Pay a cop $100 and hour to cross kids and paint curbs. Lol. Good one. Like TL, you have no say except to spew hatred on here. Haha. Run for office. Maybe you can make me dog catcher and I’ll take you hairy ass to the pound.

          Reply

      • Posted by Tough Love on October 27, 2019 at 9:31 pm

        The 60 year old “patrolman” who never got a promotion is likely crooked, has anger issues and “unfit”, is incompetent, or just plain “dumb”, and SHOULD HAVE (and if working in the Private Sector likely WOULD HAVE) been terminated 15+ years ago.

        The real issue, is WHY was he/she was kept on the force all those years?

        Answer …….. ridiculous and unjustifiable “protections”……. even for the incompetent.

        Reply

        • Proof? You’re painting a lot of hard working officers with a big brush. I have been lucky to advance through hard work. However, some fall victims to politics, and others may not test well but are still valued members of the force. Still others have side businesses and just dont care if they get promoted and still others are unqualified to move up. Who are you, with absolutely NO knowledge whatsoever about how a police force operates, to make blanket statements about people? Stick to whatever the fuck it is you do…..you still won’t tell us what it is except you Work in “finance”. Talk about corrupt. Sheesh.

          Reply

          • Posted by Tough Love on October 28, 2019 at 9:42 am

            My reference point is from the Private Sector ………. where someone who hasn’t been promoted in likely 25+ years is very likely ……………. untrustworthy, has anger issues and is “unfit”, is incompetent, or just plain “dumb”, and likely WHOULD HAVE been terminated 15+ years ago.”

            It should be no different in the Public Sector.

            Taxpayers DO NOT such individuals a job.

    • Posted by Rex the Wonder Dog! 🐶🐶🐶🦴🦴🦴 on October 28, 2019 at 12:33 am

      If we want the cops living in our higher end neighborhoods then we need to pay a decent living wage with health benefits.
      1%er compensation ≠ “decent living wage with health benefits”.

      There is a world of difference between $60K/year-$80K/year (decent/living wage) and $200K/year and$400K/year (1%er)

      Reply

  13. Posted by MJ on October 27, 2019 at 1:21 pm

    E……..absolutely a young man’s game for most police stuff but come on there are a lot of other law enforcement positions that an “over the hill 55ish” patrol cop can transition into….maybe desk work, administrative, detective work (lots of people are still sharp in their 60s), not sure how the salary piece would work but I’m sure something could be figured out.

    And not sound mean but most of the cops I see especially the city ones are so overweight and out of shape and they do not look that old!!

    Reply

    • On the last point, some do. About ten years ago we finally were rid of the fat bastards from the 70s etc who smoked, ate like shot and never worked out. However, just as we were losing that, they push some fat folks they cause they are the right gender and race. You know exactly what I mean.
      And most of the older cops that it is in place for never got promoted and in general are dead weight compared to a young buck. Most certainly would not be good for the detective bureau otherwise they would’ve been in there 15 years earlier. In every facet, it is a young mans game. The ones who do get promoted tend to stick around a few extra years.
      Listen to that dipshit,wants cops to paint curbs and cross kids for full pay. He doesn’t get it MJ. People like you and me contribute to this country with our hard work. We make this nation stronger!! TL and Rex quite candidly, do not.

      Reply

      • Posted by Rex the Wonder Dog! 🐶🐶🐶🦴🦴🦴 on October 28, 2019 at 12:39 am

        Listen to that dipshit, wants cops to paint curbs and cross kids for full pay.
        Yes, exactly. No FREE LUNCH. If your muni cannot find some useful work for you at age 50-55-60 then I CAN. Gov is short handed on everything, all kinds of USEFUL work you can do (and that needs to be done). And at $200K/year andto $400K/year (1%er) you can/will DO IT …Now stop whining like a 2 y/o cry baby. BTW is panting a curb, that needs it, “below” you?

        Reply

        • Lol. Are you kidding me? I would paint the damn curbs now for my salary rather than do what I am doing!!! Most of you would. Talk about stress free. Lol. Sign me up.
          Even better than collecting my pension and working as school guard for $40K.

          Reply

          • Posted by Rex the Wonder Dog! 🐶🐶🐶🦴🦴🦴 on October 28, 2019 at 11:07 pm

            Lol. Are you kidding me? I would paint the damn curbs now for my salary rather than do what I am doing!!! Most of you would. Talk about stress free. Lol. Sign me up…Even better than collecting my pension and working as school guard for $40K.
            No you WOULD NOT! You would be bored to death painting curbs, BUT that is work that needs to be done. Picking up trash needs to be done. CLEANING muni facilities needs to be done. This is the type of work that you and the other geriatrics could do while waiting to hit age 62/65. Bottom line is this, NO ONE can/should be able to “retire” at age 50, or below, with even a partial pension (unless they are disabled on the job). BTW, I see County Sheriffs (state) and Marshals (federal) that work in the Courts as bailiffs all the time. THAT is the MOST BORING job of all-time…ALL-TIME!!!… The sheriffs and marshals LOVE IT though, they sit on their chair shaped asses all day long. Me, I would KILL myself if forced to live that mundane and boring life… Had a cousin that wanted to be the “traffic/flag” persn for a local union construction company that mainly did road work, just direct the traffic around the work crews all day long which she thought was super easy. BUT come on, that would drive me to suicide from boredom!

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