Posturing to Fix the Unfairness

To justify that $928 in annual dues their members pay the New Jersey Education Association (NJEA) put Assembly Speaker Craig Coughlin (D-19) to work right before announcing their legislative endorsements. The bill, S-5815, is not yet on the state website but insidernj had some thoughts on timing if not substance.

It had been Coughlin’s hope, or at least that was the closest human emotion observable in the political transmission of moving the bill, that some show of action would cause the NJEA to move on their endorsements of legislative incumbents.

It was the witching hour, after all, the end of August closing in, caucus members trying to prepare autumn mail, and the organization usually issued its endorsements in early August. NJEA leadership could also – and this big, a source said, use the appearance of a slight melting of the legislative iceberg that the bill puts on display.

Chapter 78 relief is their homerun issue.

So Coughlin drafted the bill – with input from the NJEA – and then let it drop.

….

Coughlin, for his part, knew the organization doesn’t need more people in the legislature wired (probably as a consequence of taking Democratic Assembly Campaign Committee money) to buck the governor come crunch time.

But the people he has in there needed those endorsements.

So he moved the bill, knowing that made the NJEA temporarily happy, while knowing Sweeney wouldn’t budge in the other house.

96 responses to this post.

  1. Posted by Tough Love on September 4, 2019 at 9:35 pm

    I see nothing included on the Bill’s contents, other than it likely has to do with reversing some of the things in CH 78 that the Teachers don’t like.

    I recall that they are rather pissed at the healthcare premiums that they now have to pay (a sliding scale which increases with income level).

    It’s not that the premium $$ they are paying are terribly high …. or higher than what Private Sector workers typically pay …………. but because what they are COMPARING TO are the prior RIDICULOUSLY LOW premiums that they got away with for decades. Sorry teachers, join the rest of us.

    But there is MORE, because Taxpayers are STILL (post Ch 78) being financially raked over the coals…………..

    You see, comparing what THEY PAY to what Private Sector workers typically pay is NOT the relevant statistic …… Why? Because the Teachers get a MUCH MCUH more generous Plan than what Private Sector workers typically get from their employers. And because it is much more generous, the Teacher Plan’s Total Cost (EE + ER) is MUCH higher.

    Let’s construct an example (with figures that are quite representative of the actual amounts involved)…….

    Lets assume we are discussing Family Coverage for Teachers with a total cost of $35K annually, and the average teacher contributes $10K annually. The Taxpayers are then contributing the $25K balance.

    The Total Cost of Family Coverage in the Private Sector is TYPICALLY about $25K, lower than that for Teachers because their Plans are FAR less generous (less coverage and higher deductibles, copays, coinsurance, out-of-pocket maximums, etc.). Let’s also assume that the premium for the Private Sector Family Coverage is also $10K.

    Clearly, it’s NOT correct to compare the two $10K Teacher/Private Sector worker-contributions and say that they are being treated equally (and hence “fairly”). The correct $$ amount to compare for “fairness” is the required EMPLOYER Contribution. For the Teachers, the employer (meaning the TAXPAYERS) are contributing $35K-$10=$25K while for the Private Sector worker, the Employer is only contributing $25K-$10K=$15K.

    There is ZERO justification for Taxpayers funding a better deal for the Teachers. If they want a super-all-inclusive/lower employee-cost Plan, THEY (NOT the Taxpayers) should pay for 100% of the increased cost of the better package.

    Let’s NOT be fooled by the BULLSH** assuredly to be included in S-5815. It’s all to enrich those who are ALREADY getting MORE than a fair share.

    Reply

  2. The marked decline in folks majoring in education in college these days would indicate that they are Most certainly NOT getting more than their “fair share.”
    Despite what you say, you can’t compare it to the “average” private sector job. It must be based on supply and demand of qualified teachers with the benifit package adjusted accordingly if needed. As ALL jobs do. If there are not enough qualified applicants, the compensation must be raised. Or have you forgotten the lesson last year of all the states that “value” education. Ya know, OK, WV, TN et al. Not enough qualified applicants ready to take over for the striking teachers allowed them to get everything they asked for. But you know that already….
    ….the nerve of throes teachers. Wanting a
    Liveable wage. Who do they think they are? Lowly public servants 🤜
    The nerve!!!!!

    Reply

    • Posted by Tough Love on September 4, 2019 at 11:04 pm

      El gaupo,

      There is ANOTHER view …………… that the Teacher’s Union is a BIG part of the “problem”. See linked below.

      https://californiapolicycenter.org/teacher-union-mandates-lead-to-teacher-shortages/
      ————————————–

      And just FYI, EVERTHING I stated above with respect to Teachers and their “MUCH better deal” on healthcare applies equally to NJ Police. I’ve HAVE noticed how many times you have mentioned your high premium, but never admitting to the super-richness (and hence Total Cost) of your Taxpayer-funded Healthcare Plan.

      Reply

      • Yes. But you would have to admit that that union has more than likely prevented situations that have occurred in the south and allowed public education to be as good as it is here. Those states almost require a private school education if you want your kid to have a Good chance at a decent education. Your view, if unbiased, should include that point of view as well to be fair. But now even in NJ, the education majors are down.
        And I most certainly admit that my health plan, while extremely expensive and VERY limited in options, is among the best in the state. My wife is in medical billing and she says that we have the best. The doctors all agree on that and love treating us. Luckily, I’m healthy so far. But like I said, we have 2 choices. Pay lots for the best or get stuck with a shit plan by any metric with very poor coverage. I don’t get to decide what plans I am offered. And while my union gets a say, you really don’t think Norcross and his ilk have their greedy little hands on this as well?

        Reply

        • Posted by Tough Love on September 5, 2019 at 10:05 am

          Quoting …………..

          “And I most certainly admit that my health plan, while extremely expensive and VERY limited in options, is among the best in the state. My wife is in medical billing and she says that we have the best. The doctors all agree on that and love treating us. Luckily, I’m healthy so far. But like I said, we have 2 choices. Pay lots for the best or get stuck with a shit plan by any metric with very poor coverage.”

          Call me a skeptic, but the Unions WANT IT THIS WAY (because everyone picks/gets the better Plan, but gives the “appearance” of options), and our Union-beholden Elected Officials does nothing to change that.

          And yes, I’m sure the “middlemen” (e.g. Norcross) also love it this way ………… the richer the Plan, the higher the cost, and the bigger the commission/fee.

          Reply

        • Posted by Tough Love on September 5, 2019 at 11:26 am

          Quoting El gaupo …………

          “Those states almost require a private school education if you want your kid to have a Good chance at a decent education. Your view, if unbiased, should include that point of view as well to be fair. ”

          My response was “fair”, and what I sated above was right-on-the-money ……….

          “It’s not that the premium $$ they are paying are terribly high …. or higher than what Private Sector workers typically pay …………. but because what they are COMPARING TO are the prior RIDICULOUSLY LOW premiums that they got away with for decades. ”
          ———————————–

          I haven’t forgotten one NJ Unions screaming at the “outrage” at increasing their drug co-pays by 67%.

          Some further digging revealed that their copay were going up from $3 to $5, all while $25+ was typical in Private Sector Plans.

          Reply

          • If you haven’t forgotten, which Union was it and when did this occur?

          • Posted by Tough Love on September 5, 2019 at 5:00 pm

            I don’t remember with Union/Plan. It was about 10 years ago ……… which is why the Private Sector co-pay was only $25 at that time. Private Sector co-pays (for anything but generic drugs) are often a great deal higher today.

            How about sharing YOUR co-pays by drug category ….. generic, brand-name in-formulary, brand name out-of-formulary, specialty.

          • I’d have to look and see what brand name are. I think they are $15 or $25. Regular generic is $10 I believe and $5 thru the mail order. (For 90 pills) Like I said it is a good plan. The shitty one has higher co pays and lower premium costs for everyone.

          • Posted by Rex the Wonder Dog! on September 8, 2019 at 11:01 pm

            My co-pay is, and has been for 25 years, $20 with Kaiser. Generic everything.

          • Posted by Tough Love on September 8, 2019 at 11:37 pm

            What does that mean if a “generic” for a particular Brand name drug is NOT available yet?

            Can you get the Brand name drug, and if so, what do you pay ?

  3. Posted by dentss dunigha on September 5, 2019 at 7:47 am

    Lets hope more and more teachers opt-out of the union .8%in your pocket …

    Reply

  4. Posted by geo8rge on September 5, 2019 at 9:31 am

    The teachers are trying to get the cost of living adjustment COLA reinstated for health insurance costs.

    Ch 78 is according to Brenda Flanagan:

    Public school teachers claim a 2011 law called Chapter 78 forces them to pay a share of insurance premiums that have increased so quickly that it’s outpacing their annual raises so they’re losing money. To fix it, they’re backing a bill that would link their premium share to a percentage of their salaries, not to health care policies negotiated by school districts. The bill also requires a cap.

    https://www.njtvonline.org/news/video/public-school-teachers-lobby-for-affordable-health-insurance/

    Reply

    • Posted by Tough Love on September 5, 2019 at 10:12 am

      No matter how you shake-it, the TAXPAYER contribution for Teachers (and all Public Sector workers) should be no more than what Private Sector employers typically contribute towards their workers’ Health Ins. The employEES should pay the balance, meaning that if they elect a “very rich”, Plan it will cost THEM more ….. as it SHOULD.

      Taxpayers should NOT be suckered into funding a better deal than what THEY typically get.

      Reply

      • Posted by NJ2AZ on September 5, 2019 at 11:05 am

        give them the same deal that seems to be getting more and more popular: We’ll pay YOUR entire CDHP premium but nada for your family.

        watch their heads explode

        Reply

        • And watch them, like perhaps your wife would do, leave the profession in droves. Or strike, you see how that worked out. And in states with poor union representation. Imagine that. Underpaid teachers having the balls to strike. It’s for the children right? Isn’t that what you wife says. She’d to it for free right??? Cause it’s for the kids. Same as the pediatrician and the day care center right? Same as me. Yea. I’m in it to protect folks for free.

          Reply

          • In all honesty, those states are better off that those teachers went on strike. Could you imagine the alternative? Teachers not giving a fuck? Like so many health care aides that get paid shit? With no one to take there place, they couldn’t just dialed down the effort and there would be nothing the board could have done. Instead the struck and got paid a fairer wage and the kids are better off cause of it. No matter what you say or think that is a fact. Your taxes may not be better off, but the kids sure are.

          • Posted by Tough Love on September 5, 2019 at 12:06 pm

            El gaupo,

            Your repeated shift of the discussion to OTHER States ………. to move off the rightful discussion of the unfairness to NJ Taxpayers ……. IS noticed.

            Are you learning this technique from CA commentator Stephen Douglass, as he’s done this for years.

          • Posted by NJ2AZ on September 5, 2019 at 2:54 pm

            EL G,

            i don’t think it is inconsistent at all to believe AZ teachers are undercompensated and NJ teachers are overcompensated. Nor is it some binary choice where a state either has to be AZ or NJ.

            NJ teachers have had it too good for too long, especially in terms of their ridiculous health insurance benefits.

          • Posted by Rex the Wonder Dog! on September 5, 2019 at 4:57 pm

            And watch them, like perhaps your wife would do, leave the profession in droves.
            And go WHERE EG? There is no demand for ex public employees in the realworld. Anywhere in the real world EG.

          • Hahaha. Ok Rex. Even if I stipulate to that(which I don’t—it is as your owner, I mean friend TL would say, patently absurd) what would u say about the lack of new teachers signing up. Lol.
            Btw. I know you just peeing on…I mean pulling my leg. Can’t get the dog reference out of my mind.

          • AZ. I think you are forgetting how damn expensive it is to live here and how most folks in the private sector here are paid substantially more than folks in the private sector in AZ. A plumber will easily charge triple digits on hour here. Usually $125 and up. How much there? $50? Maybe??
            I’m sure you noticed you didn’t have to quite make nearly as much when you moved west.

  5. Posted by Tough Love on September 5, 2019 at 12:13 pm

    Off Topic…………

    Just ANOTHER very good example of WHY Donald Trump should NOT be (and never should have been) elected as America’s President:

    https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/05/politics/alabama-dorian-donald-trump/index.html

    Reply

    • Posted by Anonymous on September 5, 2019 at 12:22 pm

      You’re so dense. Of course we are using other states as a canary in coal mine. You just don’t want to admit it. How then did those teachers get every damn thing they wanted? Can u answer that? And we have seen the beginnings of that in NJ in rural and urban districts. Of course the burbs pay more. They value their schools and can afford it. The fact remains, you think that at birth someone is destined to be a teacher cop fireman etc regardless of pay and they will always be lining up to the job. They won’t. Or at least qualified folks won’t. And honestly, if you can’t hire qualified people you might as well shut it down. That is even worse than no teachers.

      You get to off topic and change the direction of the convo anytime u want tho right?
      Cause you’re in Rexs words mentally, physically and emotionally tougher than me. Ha. You’re lucky you can wipe your own ass as Marine1 likes to say 😛😛😛

      Reply

      • Posted by Tough Love on September 5, 2019 at 6:58 pm

        My comment (to which El Gaupo shifted the discussion to OTHER States) was SOLELY addressing the VERY high amount that NJ Taxpayers are forced to contribute towards NJ Teacher Healthcare costs………… nothing more, nothing less.

        There was no need to expand that point …. excessive Taxpayers contributions in NJ …. to the situation in OTHER States.

        And AS EXPECTED, you are jumping on El gaupo’s band wagon and doing the same.

        Surprise, surprise.

        And neither one of you had the guts to address it directly. WHY should NJ Taxpayers (in the Family Plan example I included in the FIRST comment above) contribute about $10,000 MORE towards NJ Teacher healthcare insurance Premiums than what their PRIVATE Sector employers typically contribute towards the cost of their employees healthcare premiums?
        —————————-

        And quoting ……. “You’re so dense”:

        No “dense” is CHOOSING to spend one’s career changing light bulbs.

        Reply

        • Posted by Anonymous on September 5, 2019 at 7:00 pm

          LOL, you and Stephen are so much alike, I’m mixing the 2 of you up. Perhaps it would help if BOTH of you stopped posting under “Anonymous”.

          Reply

    • Posted by Marine1 on September 5, 2019 at 4:29 pm

      Trump will win because of out of control liberals and out of control feminists. You may be both if you voted for HRC. Essentially the country is disgusted by you. Look at how your type have attempted to destroy the Military and weaken LE in our country. Gross.

      Reply

      • Marine 1, do you believe that women should serve in the military in combat positions? how about LE? Do you believe that women are as capable as men in passing these rigorous physical tests and do they belong in combat if they want to serve alongside men?

        What do you consider a feminist? A woman who wants equal pay for equal work?

        Just wondering what your thought process is on this issue

        Reply

        • Posted by Marine1 on September 5, 2019 at 4:53 pm

          MJ-
          1. No to combat positions
          2. No to LE
          3. No because they can’t time and time again. Training is modified to accommodate the fact that they can’t do the job. So what does that tell you.
          4. Woman should be paid the same for jobs in offices,hospitals,education etc.
          5. Feminists believe that in addition to equality in pay they should have leverage with promotions simply because they are females and if they don’t get their way they say they were sexually harassed,sue,you know the rest. All men should follow the Pence rule for workplace survival.

          Reply

        • Posted by Marine1 on September 5, 2019 at 5:11 pm

          MJ- In the era of the metoo movement why would any company hire a female ? It’s just not worth the risk and with the High Court tilting more conservative with each passing year females may soon be relegated back to the kitchen.

          Reply

      • Posted by Tough Love on September 5, 2019 at 7:09 pm

        Well Marine1, I can’t speak “for the country”, but I’d guess that quite a few on this blog are “disgusted” with you who (on multiple occasions) called Civilians trash and teld them to go kill themselves.

        And I have never done or said anything to weaken the Military or LE …….. only that LEO pensions & benefits are off-the-wall ludicrously excessive and unjustifiable ………… and I stand by all of my comments saying so …. IN SPADES.
        ——————

        And you, sounds like you should become a Private Sector mercenary-for-hire.

        Reply

        • Wrong again. lol. U consistently post negative articles about police officers screwing up. Not just pensions and benifits. Which would be fine if it was balanced. But it’s not. It’s only the one side So don’t say you stick to pensions and bennies. Because u don’t. Why? To get a rise out of us. Nothing more. Same as Marine1 saying he wants to have all civilians be killed. Said to get a rise out of you and it works.

          Reply

          • Posted by Tough Love on September 5, 2019 at 10:14 pm

            I got a good laugh when I say THIS one. 2 Idiots !

            https://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/2019/09/05/2-asbury-park-police-officers-accused-of-vandalizing-complainants-cars/
            ——————————————
            Let me know if you ………… “got a rise ” .

          • I didn’t get a good laugh. I think it is pathetic and stupid to lose you “patently absurd” pension by doing that as YOU know, I have no sympathy for them. I can understand a mistake, and too often the microscope is on us in that area, after all perfection is expected and humans can’t deliver that all the time, but this is not a mistake this is in fact a crime and 100% preventable by having half a brain.
            I will defend my “patently absurd” salary and bennies. I won’t defend cops who don’t deserve that support.
            News because it is a cop. Nevertheless, I don’t feel sympathy for those two. I’ll save that for the guys who make an honest mistake but get lambasted by folks like you. Patently absurd I say.

          • Posted by Tough Love on September 6, 2019 at 7:48 am

            The “laugh” was my thinking how all the towns claim to work so hard to hire only the “best and brightest”.

          • Posted by Tough Love on September 6, 2019 at 7:53 am

            Quoting ………….

            “I’ll save that for the guys who make an honest mistake but get lambasted by folks like you.”

            I have NEVER lambasted anyone (Police or otherwise) for an “honest mistake” …………. happens to everyone occasionally. Of course, not everyone is in agreement as to what constitutes an “honest” mistake, and there is OFTEN room for unbiased differences of opinion.

          • Uh. Asbury Park dear. While better than a generation ago for sure, No offense, but your best and brightest usually follow El Gaupo up to the burbs or to the prosecutors office.

          • Posted by Tough Love on September 6, 2019 at 8:50 am

            Tell that to Asbury Park. I’m sure THEY claim that they are hiring the “best and brightest”. Of course that’s the “best and brightest” from an applicant pool that may not include many who really are “best” or “bright” ………. lol
            ——————————–

            What’s really sad is the HUGE negative impact that the ludicrously excessive Police pension and benefits has on new Officer wages. If it wasn’t for those idiotically excessive pension & benefits promises (mostly going to Older/Long-service Officers), new Officer wages could be much higher, thereby attracting higher quality candidates. And THAT applies to the Northern NJ “burbs” as well as to NJ’s economically depressed areas.

          • Hmmm….you mean you disagree with the elected officials who have made serious headway into making policing more affordable over the last 20 or so years? With longevity being taken away, medical after retirement in many cases(like mine for new hires) adding many steps, etc I thought you’d be in favor of those salary and benefit reductions. So we agree😉
            The job isn’t what it used to be in terms of compensation and that I’ll be the last well paid generation of police officer?
            Well see what happens, but I agree with you that in the future you will see less qualified police applicants as a whole. We’ve seen it already. True story— when I first got hired there was a guy who returned from Vietnam and was studying to be an auto mechanic. He lived across the street from police Hq/boro hall complex. In 1970, the mayor walked across the street one day and asked him if he wanted a job. Guy was under his car doing an oil change at the time. Those guys could never exist today with cameras and all the 21st century tech that goes with the job. Likewise I’ll be obsolete in a few years. I already see the way these kids pick up on new tech stuff.
            Either way, I’m glad to see you advocating for “much higher pay” for our young officers. Thank you for your support. I’ll be on the sidelines soon enough. 10 months to 6 years. Then it’s goodbye tension hello pension.
            Biggest decision will be insurance company and the big $$$ or easy schedule at the high school as a class 3.
            Again, thank you for supporting our newer officers as they struggle against these towns that have curtailed benifits.
            I won’t be taking any cuts though, you’ll be paying more for it. Don’t worry, as we pointed out, police salaries do NOT make up a large % of your taxes. Your own analysis showed that.
            Have a great weekend my friend. Let’s meet up for s beer sometime. My treat. And like I said, give me your address and I’ll mail you my first pension check.
            I’m sure Marine1 will do the same. Hell, we will hand deliver it. Least we could do right? Let’s have that beer. You me and maybe Liz Warren?

  6. Posted by geo8rge on September 5, 2019 at 2:05 pm

    Case Study: Town’s Change from DB to DC Plan Having Desired Effect

    How the transition from pension plan to a 401a is helping a small New England town limit its long-term liability

    But note: “The article notes that volunteer fire fighters and police officers were not included in the transition and remain on the DB plan, as is common for public safety professionals to encourage retention.” (Volunteer fire fighters get pensions? )

    https://401kspecialistmag.com/case-study-towns-change-from-db-to-dc-plan-having-desired-effect/

    Source:

    https://www.zip06.com/news/20190827/two-years-on-saybrook-pension-change-is-having-desired-effect

    Reply

    • The cops will always get a pension. Simply because the first time they got hurt or sued and didn’t have the backing of the spineless politicians, they would quit. You think the cop that got milk thrown at him would stay? How about the 2 that were shot at? Luckily they killed the bad guy in that one. But now they all pissed because a cop said “one less asshole around to sue us” on video after the guy that shot at them died. Give me a break.

      Reply

      • Posted by Marine1 on September 5, 2019 at 6:42 pm

        E- The cornerstone of any successful civilization throughout time has been built on security (which is police/military),education,farmers,and politicians. Everything else is just fluff. When recession strikes that becomes crystal clear. It hasn’t changed ever.

        Reply

        • Posted by Tough Love on September 5, 2019 at 7:17 pm

          You were born a few thousand years too late ………. you would have fit in PERFECTLY in the Roman Era.

          I can easily envision you on a Chariot trampling the fleeing Civilians.

          Reply

          • Posted by Marine1 on September 5, 2019 at 7:28 pm

            TL- If you actually are a female and aren’t completely ugly you would have worked at a brothel,if you are a male we would have fed you to the lions. The Roman times were glorious !

  7. Let’s not forget that teachers only work about 9 months out of the year if one counts summers off, Christmas break, spring break, long weekends, etc and I believe their health insurance is carried through the summer. When they retire after a bone crushing 28 years the health benefits continue for the retiree, spouse and college age children. Once they reach age 65 they are reimbursed for their Medicare payments.

    Since they can retire much, much earlier than most, they can also wait longer to file for SS so that they can get the maximum benefit.

    And let’s not forget that no matter what the need, what the economy, how low the student population goes, how good or bad of a teacher one is, they can rarely if ever lose their jobs if tenured.

    So if a 9 month salary was spread over a full 12 months it would be much higher.

    If they call out sick, a sub takes over so there isn’t much to catch up on once they return. Grading papers at night?? cut me a break as everyone I know gets work done at home to stay on top of things. They also get stipends to run clubs, coach, etc.

    Teachers are also one of the only occupations who can work over the summer at another paid position such as coaching, life guarding at local beaches, family businesses, tutoring, summer school programs, you name it.

    I think it is important that teachers look at the entire package of salary, benefits, generous sick time, and perks. No one said it is an “easy” job but that’s why it is called work.

    Reply

    • You have to admit that teachers as a whole are pretty disrespected compared to other professions that carry the same social responsibility. Yes they are their own worst enemy sometimes with their union. But without it they would make far less.
      I don’t begrudge them MJ. They do play an important role in society and most are not getting rich doing this. And tenure is needed to prevent a politician/board member from firing someone because they are close to a pension or they are moving up the pay scale or because the school board members daughter needs a job.
      Same think w cops. I don’t want a politician to be able to fire me because I wrote his kid a ticket, or because he wants to hire a buddy. Politicians cannot be trusted. They have done a great job of proving that.

      Reply

      • and I guess TL is still trying to remember the teachers union that she hasn’t forgotten. The one where she claims that they went into an uproar over the prescription costs. She can’t remember and probably read the story on pension tsunami or some other bullshit website. Pathetic she is I tell ya.

        Reply

        • Posted by Tough Love on September 5, 2019 at 8:23 pm

          No, It’s you that is pathetic ………. by any and every attempt to justify your absurdly generous/unnecessary compensation, and insulting those of us who really DO “earn” their compensation.

          Reply

      • Posted by PS Drone on September 5, 2019 at 5:57 pm

        EG – let us stipulate that up to $100K many teachers are underpaid, particularly the good ones. So let’s pay them more while deferring their pension benefit collection age to 66 because that is the only way we could afford to pay them more. What we have now is insanity.

        Reply

        • The age for anyone hired after 2011 is 65. And the path to progress will up it to 67!!
          The age has been increased incrementally since 2005 when it was 55. But let’s see what the actual retirement age is for these older teachers who were hired under the 55 age. I’m not disagreeing with you (I’ve been an advocate on here for higher retirement age even for police —-albeit with a 55 or 57 min age for cops) I’m just saying I have no idea how many teachers actually retire before their early 60s.

          Reply

          • Posted by Marine1 on September 5, 2019 at 6:44 pm

            E- The “path to progress” may be dead. Caughlin is backing the teachers now.

          • Posted by Tough Love on September 5, 2019 at 8:36 pm

            And what about those hired BEFORE 2011………. how easy for you to omit those who will remain on the HIGHER-COST pre-2011 structure for perhaps 20 more years?

            And the Path-to-Progress proposals STILL won’t impact anyone with as little as 5 years of service.

            Pension/Benefit changes in the Private Sector DO NOT work that way …. with very few exceptions, impacting EVERYONE.
            ————————-

            At what “age” someone retires (i.e., stop working) is not what matters. What MATTERS is at what age one can begin collecting their pension w/o reduction, and if they begin collecting at an earlier age, if the annual payout is actuarially adjusted accordingly ….by about 5% for EACH year of age younger than the age at which unreduced benfits can begin.

            For everyone but Safety workers that “unreduced pension” age should be the SAME as Social Security’s full Retirement age (now 67), and for Safety workers, it should be no earlier than age 62 ………. retire at 55 and your pension (otherwise payable at age 62) should be REDUCED by 5%x(62-55)=35%.

      • Posted by Tough Love on September 5, 2019 at 7:27 pm

        That’s all fine ………… but what’s the justification for granting you such ludicrously excessive pensions & benefits ON TOP OF “wages” that are also VERY CLEARLY on the high side ?

        Reply

      • E…I think there are enough employment laws, rules and regulations that protect workers from being fired or demoted without just cause. Teachers have become disrespected bc as you say they are their own worst enemy.

        Here’s an example close to home…….when I lived in our family home in a solid middle to upper class south Jersey neighborhood I had two neighbors. One was a teacher with a spouse and 2 kids. The other was a pretty successful small business owner with wife and 2 kids. As weird as it sounds both contracted long term illnesses (some type of cancer). The teacher was able to stay out of work for treatment and recovery for as long as he wanted and his teaching job would be preserved when he was ready to return, full health benefits in place for him and his family. He died and wife received his pension (reduced) and the life insurance police that the school paid for and every other perk she was eligible for. His kids received “scholarships” thru the NJEA??

        My other neighbor, not so much……..the family struggled financially bc obviously the husband couldn’t work and had to rely on others to run his business, health benefits had to be paid by him and they were not that good. Wife had to end up taking a retail job just to make ends meet. Real estate taxes alone were over 12K at that time. He eventually died and the family had to end up selling the house for under market just to get out of it. Not sure if there were life insurance benefits. I believe this is the case for most private sector people. After your “disability” you are required to pay the health benefits. I was kind of friendly with the family and I remember the horrible situation.

        And before you say “he chose to own a business” keep in mind that he employed over 85 people most of whom had families and depended on those jobs and benefits. Those people were out of a job when things turned for the worse so many were affected by this unfortunate circumstance

        So again teachers have it pretty damn good and I hate to sound like TL but they provide a service and should not have it better than those who are forced to pay for it whether they utilize that service or not………….

        I think that’s my problem with all this shit, is the publics don’t see the hardships, financial burdens, medical burdens, tax burdens to support all of this largesse and yet teachers still want to bitch………something is definitely wrong with this picture

        I don’t begrudge others either but have to say those teachers are really over rated

        Reply

        • Posted by Tough Love on September 6, 2019 at 8:38 am

          Quoting ……………

          “I think that’s my problem with all this shit, is the publics don’t see the hardships, financial burdens, medical burdens, tax burdens to support all of this largesse and yet teachers still want to bitch………something is definitely wrong with this picture”

          MJ, your pretty much right on the money here, but I believe that a high percentage of Public Sector workers (ALL of them NOT just teachers) DO SEE ………….”the hardships, financial burdens, medical burdens, tax burdens to support all of this largesse”………. but BECAUSE of the huge benefit to them, and because they don’t want to give any of it up, either outright don’t care or chose to look the other way.

          Reply

        • Posted by Tough Love on September 6, 2019 at 9:06 am

          Quoting …………

          “So again teachers have it pretty damn good and I hate to sound like TL but they provide a service and should not have it better than those who are forced to pay for it whether they utilize that service or not………….”

          After re-reading your comment ………. especially the above ……… are you saying that (for example) homeowners with no children in the Public schools should not have to pay the school portion of their property tax? Never heard you go in that direction before and I am rather surprised by that if true.

          I have no issue with paying those taxes, before, during, and after my children are no longer in the Public schools, believing that it “all shakes out in the long run” with most residents going through periods with children in and not-in the Public school system.

          My issue is the excessive Total Compensation (wages + pensions + benefits), and more recently how the HUGE cost of those excessive/unjustifiably pensions & benefits is impacting basic services, including the depressing of new-worker “wages”. The older/long-service workers who fully control the Unions and fight every attempt to remedy some of these problems are a HUGE negative for NJ’s towns.

          Reply

          • Posted by Tough Love on September 6, 2019 at 9:16 am

            And anticipating a particular response (not from you MJ, but from some others) …..

            So, you want to lose all that “experience” of long-service workers?

            Experience …………. but at what cost (to new workers, and to services provided current and future residents)?

          • TL what I’m saying is that we are paying way too much for way too little in terms of teachers and schools. Yes, it is the responsibility of the community to support the schools and education but at what cost……. I don’t think it unreasonable to at least reduce the school tax portion as those without children are not utilizing that service……or how about those families with who over utilize the school services due to having many children or senior citizens on fixed incomes.

            Where I live, the school population has dropped considerably but yet more employees are hired each year……..I think there is a lot of waste and abuse and layer upon layer of administration who do not have any interaction with kids.

            So with an already over bloated system teetering of financial collapse I just don’t see why this is allowed to continue. As I stated there are currently enough laws in place to protect workers from unfair treatment or unjust termination.

            I personally would never send my kids to public school, not today………they don’t teach they indoctrinate, they don’t encourage analytical thinking but rather rote memorization. Kids today practically get the answers to tests and exams.

            Oh well, as E likes to say, make your money in NJ then leave to spend it somewhere else!

          • Posted by Tough Love on September 6, 2019 at 8:16 pm

            Quoting MJ ………….

            “Where I live, the school population has dropped considerably but yet more employees are hired each year……..I think there is a lot of waste and abuse and layer upon layer of administration who do not have any interaction with kids.”

            That kind of thing ……. more Public Sector workers as need decreases ……. is more and more common. I recall reading how in one location the prison population deceased by over 1/3 but the # of Corrections Officers INCREASED.

            It doesn’t work that way in the Private Sector where Companies don’t have captive 3-rd party suckers (e.g.. the TAXPAYERS) upon whom unnecessary expenses can be foisted.

        • Posted by Tough Love on September 6, 2019 at 9:33 am

          MJ,

          Just saw this today and thought the included $$$ amounts would enable easier comparison to what Private Sector workers typically get in Healthcare benefits from their employers ……….

          https://www.nj.com/politics/2019/09/new-njea-backed-teachers-health-care-proposal-stirs-clash-between-powerful-democrats.html

          Quoting from the article:

          “The vast majority of teachers enrolled in the School Employees Health Benefits Plan are in NJ Direct 10, a plan with $10 copays, no in-network deductibles and a $1,000 out-of-pocket maximum for families. A Direct 10 family plan costs $37,905.”
          ——————————————————————–
          That a heck of a lot richer and more costly than Family Coverage typically granted Private Sector workers.

          Reply

          • MJ. If I could get a word in edgewise here. I do agree with TL(rare but true). I believe it is the responsibility of ALL taxpayers to educate children just as it is the responsibility of ALL taxpayers to pay Medicare and SS (yes I know cops and fire don’t pay it receive it, but you get my drift)
            And both of these stories appear to be tragedies. What I don’t care for is the us against them mentally of either side. We are all citizens here. If both families didn’t get sick, the small business owner would have a chance to fly as high as he could in terms of incomes, way higher than the teacher. He did in fact choose that route, probably because he, like the teacher, was passionate about what they decided to do for a living. He had a much higher ceiling in terms of compensation than the teacher though. Both were probably great fathers and family men. Sad all around.
            Most teachers are NOT killing it in the income department and were in fact vilified worse than cops by the Christie crowd. (We get it bad enough from the libs too though, balances out) How many teachers do you know living in million dollar homes? Only if they marry a wealthy spouse.
            One thing I can tell you is that no one in my dept ever says they deserve what the millionaire in the mansion gets. And we have quite a few in my town We all believe in capitalism. I’m included in that. Sometimes folks think my bills ain’t real like their own. Not so.
            I also understand that sometimes South Jersey might as well be another state. Lol. I went to the academy there and am familiar with the difference.

          • E. Not R

        • Posted by Marine1 on September 6, 2019 at 2:24 pm

          MJ- They are disrespected because we live in country that is horrible at parenting. They could be paid minimum wage with no union and still be treated like crap in Newark,Camden,Paterson,Philadelphia, NYC,LA,New Orleans,Chicago, Detroit,etc. No one under any circumstances send a child to public school in this country.

          Reply

          • M1…I’m sure these “children” are disrespecting everyone and that is bc the parents have no respect for themselves and I agree that no one should send their child to public school…..boom problem solved

  8. Posted by Tough Love on September 6, 2019 at 8:19 am

    Unfortunately, America has a VERY unfit personas President ……………. that he can’t just DROP IT and MOVE ON speaks volume about his fitness for Office.

    https://www.aol.com/article/news/2019/09/06/trump-was-reportedly-the-person-who-used-a-black-sharpie-to-change-the-confusing-hurricane-dorian-map/23807909/

    Reply

    • Posted by PS Drone on September 6, 2019 at 10:58 am

      With respect to this map BS – WGAS!

      Reply

    • We have a lot of unfit teachers too should they be removed from the classroom and away from our children???

      I think it would be easier to impeach Trump than to get rid of a teacher with tenure

      Reply

  9. Posted by Anonymous on September 6, 2019 at 12:35 pm

    “I accept the Fake News apologies,” Trump tweeted on Wednesday.

    Numerous White House officials told The Post that the media coverage on the kerfuffle was unfair. One official reportedly said “as long as it’s in the news, he is not going to drop it.”
    ————————————
    So what’s new? He still hasn’t admitted Barack Obama was born in the U.S.

    September 16, 20164:31 PM ET

    Heard on All Things Considered

    DETROW: It was Trump’s high-profile questions that forced Obama to confront the issue in 2011. Obama walked into the White House briefing room in April and released his long-form birth certificate.

    (SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)

    BARACK OBAMA: We do not have time for this kind of silliness. We’ve got better stuff to do. I’ve got better stuff to do.

    DETROW: Trump has been asked about this over and over during his presidential campaign. Philadelphia TV station WPVI asked him earlier this month.

    (SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)

    TRUMP: I don’t talk about it…

    UNIDENTIFIED MAN: Do you regret bringing it up back then?

    TRUMP: I told you I don’t talk about it anymore.

    Reply

  10. E….my point was that public school teachers have it way ,way better than most and they still want to bitch and complain. Of course, we all make choices as to what our passions and careers might be but the guy taking the hits should not have to subsidize the guy who never ever has to worry about losing his job or benefits whether he sucks at his job or not.

    My uncle is a bankruptcy attorney in South Jersey…….he tells us many hard luck stories of ALWAYS private sector workers losing their homes due to being over burdened with taxes……..all it takes is an extended illness, loss of a job, unexpected death of a spouse, an unexpected bump in the road
    and yet the teachers want to bitch bc they get to sit on the beach all summer and still have their 37,000 a year health plan (per TL) ……..ok keep bitching and they wonder why they are disrespected.

    And not for anything but one doesn’t have to be overly smart or skilled to be a teacher as it’s the easiest major of all.

    And round and round it goes……whatever

    Reply

    • Posted by Tough Love on September 6, 2019 at 8:23 pm

      MJ,

      No, not $37,000 “per me” (TL), but $37,905 per the nj.com article I linked above in my comment timestamped September 6, 2019 at 9:33 am

      Reply

    • Posted by Marine1 on September 6, 2019 at 8:51 pm

      MJ- I’m not saying the benefit package isn’t great for 9 months of work,but cmon it certainly isn’t a cakewalk job that just anyone can do. I couldn’t sit in a classroom all day with these kids and deal with their idiot parents. You couldn’t pay me $200,000 plus the bennies to do that for 30 years.

      Reply

      • The benifit package is great. But the income levels are not. Again, MJ, you may not see too many teachers on the bread line, but you won’t see any on millionaires row either. And the main (non financial) problem is in fact parenting. Many expect the teacher to be mom or dad.
        People will always want to risk bankruptcy to hit the jackpot with a small business. Many do. Most don’t.
        But if teachers and cops were declaring bankruptcy just “because” and not do to themselves taking a risk or spending to much, then no one would ever take the job.

        Reply

        • E…again I think you are missing the point. Not every small business owner is becoming a multi millionaire. Most take personal financial risk to grow their businesses (business loans, second mortgages, etc) if it works out then yes there is a pay off of some sort usually a decent salary and decent health benefits for the owner and all the workers and families that he/she employs. They must save for their own retirements, health care deductibles, etc. If the economy goes south or if there is a recession, added competition, they all suffer, pull back, tighten their belts, cut costs, cheaper health plans, lay off employees, etc.

          Conversely, public workers have none of the risk, absolutely none and if the economy tanks or a recession sinks in…well raises, health plans, guaranteed employment just keeps rolling along. While I realize that some positions such as LE are needed regardless of conditions, most others positions can be eliminated and I can guarantee that no one would even notice. In most towns, populations are dwindling as are enrollments in public schools but rarely if ever is anyone laid off typically they are shuffled around or “new” positions created.

          You of course will find this difficult to understand or comprehend but I realize you are in the later category so perhaps it just doesn’t occur to you so I will give you the benefit of the doubt.

          And with that said, I think enough has been said on this topic for me.

          Have a great weekend!

          Reply

          • Posted by Marine1 on September 7, 2019 at 10:48 am

            MJ- So in a nutshell the public’s planned better than the privates. That’s all there is to that.

          • Posted by Tough Love on September 7, 2019 at 8:53 pm

            No Marine1.

            The Publics didn’t “plan” better, they are just the beneficiaries of a RACKETEERING Enterprise with their Unions and our Elected Officials as the crooks, and the Taxpayers as the ones being ROBBED.

          • Posted by Anonymous on September 8, 2019 at 12:13 am

            Even if it is true that many public workers are proven to be undercompensated compared to private employees (it is), and many more are compensated EQUALLY to private workers (they are).

          • Posted by Tough Love on September 8, 2019 at 6:55 am

            Many … as a % of the total ???

            No, on comparable basis (including hours worked/wk and productive work-output), only in the minds of a current or retired Public Sector workers (or their family members).

      • Posted by Anonymous on September 7, 2019 at 7:52 am

        And do you know what M1….those nasty ill parented kids would still disrespect the teachers and school staff because that it is a social problem

        A lot of jobs are difficult, some jobs are very dangerous, other jobs require high level cognitive skills and hours of work, still other jobs require a lot of personal financial risk that’s why its called work and not a day at the beach

        With all the disrespect and hatred the cops are experiencing now a days I wouldn’t do you job for 200k a year either.

        Reply

        • Very true. Some guys I work with also have landscaping businesses and two are realtors.
          The thing with teachers is they are such an easy target because that is where almost all the taxes go. And just like with police, people think that they make to much because of that. In reality MJ, very very few teachers can support a family on a single income. That is also true of most jobs now. Even mine. I did it for 9 years, but many can’t do it on one income. I am in the process of selling my mother in law property. It is difficult because of some restrictions. Our attorney doing this charges $100s of $$ an hour. His ceiling is far higher than mine or a teachers. Which is fine, he is among the best.
          The idea of teaching as in law enforcement is to make it a career. Turnover is NOT a good thing. Especially in LE.
          The truth is that the kids today aren’t taking education as majors. Most of the time that indicates either a strong economy, or they teachers aren’t seen as paid enough or kids don’t want to do it for other reasons. (Constant lack of respect now a days).
          Everyone starts their path in life after college or high school/ trade school.
          Both my kids are in high school. They are both keenly aware of what teachers make. Neither wants to pursue the field as of now. One friend wants to be an art teacher. That’s it.
          In a way it is a shame. Let’s be honest, it is an important job and not one that should be trashed because other higher paying jobs are affected more by the economy.
          I have NEVER had a poltician come to our dept and say “the economy is booming, I know you signed a 5 year deal a year ago for small raises but we’re gonna give you bonuses because you do a great job”.
          Oh well. It is what it is.
          Enough already.
          Should I take the giants and the points? I have more interest in that topic quite frankly. We’ve beaten this one to death.

          Reply

  11. And to all…no the publics didn’t “plan” better than anyone they live in a la la land called the public sector where there is no competition, no free economy, no sense of sound business or financial practices and promises made that most likely will not be kept bc they they are unsustainable and were granted by corrupt politicians who need your votes despite bringing down NJ.

    As for your contracts, they are already quite generous so there is no need to “bump” it up during a good economy

    Again, I don’t begruge anyone anything if its earned fair and square

    Reply

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