Path Illogical


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Which is the only defense that New Jersey Senate president Steve Sweeney can have for some of his statements at an event last month open to “current Rutgers University students, faculty and staff only.

Excerpts with some comments:


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Is that some sort of natural law for government union plans?
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When did the retirement age decrease? There was a change in 2001 that lowered the denominator of the accrual fraction from 60 to 55 but that applied to only the PERS and Teachers (not all 800,000 participants). What Sweeney seems to have done is see a 60 changed to 55 and believe it had something to do with retirement age, as a prior governor also did, but with the added twist that he now believes there were two separate benefit improvements (for all participants).
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This number goes down each time they have one of these get-togethers.
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Full video:
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42 responses to this post.

  1. Posted by Tough Love on May 12, 2019 at 9:57 pm

    Whoa ………… Did Sweeney actually say ………. “by law if the pension plans are over 100% funded, you make improvements”?

    Now putting aside that THEIR 100% funded is NOT really 100% funded (but much less), is he correct that if under THEIR definition of 100% funded, when it is, BY LAW Plan improvements must be made?

    John is that correct ……. first time I have ever heard of this ?

    Reply

    • Not so much damning Sweeney when he makes up this stuff (since he admittedly wouldn’t know better) but it’s the ‘experts’ he assembled not speaking up that dooms this project.

      Reply

  2. Posted by Tough Love on May 12, 2019 at 10:06 pm

    Sweeney thinking that their was a drop in the NRA from 60 to 55 (which there wasn’t), IN ADDITION TO the 1/60 to 1/55 per-year-of-service formula-factor change (which there was) is a big deal……… since such an NRA reduction would have had a huge financial impact.

    Scary that someone so confused is the Taxpayers’ best hope ………. with “hope” meaning securing pension & benefit REDUCTIONS, not tax increases.

    Reply

  3. Posted by skip3house on May 13, 2019 at 5:22 am

    Even Wendell Potter is doing better (self isolated?) in @TarBellOrg

    Reply

  4. Posted by Anonymous on May 13, 2019 at 5:44 am

    Bottom line…will pensions be cut, will retirement age go up, will benefits be reduced? Will spending be reigned in, will budgets be cut, will lay offs occur?

    Most likely answer, not enough to make a big difference

    Reply

    • Posted by El Gaupo on May 13, 2019 at 6:51 am

      Off topic…article in Barrons says employer contributions to 401k funds averaged 4.7% this year.
      How about it, TL? After path to progress gets passed lets make that 457 contributions for those affected the same right? EQUAL…..but not better.
      https://apple.news/Ah3v2l5hUSaCJitQxkLFW4g

      Reply

      • Posted by Tough Love on May 13, 2019 at 7:39 am

        lol ………… I don’t know what % if anything the Taxpayers contribute into your 457 Plan, but since THAT, the 4.7%-of-pay (part of which is NOT an automatic match, but profit sharing per your linked article) is ALL that PRIVATE Sector workers typically get from their employers, how about we TRADE that for your current DB Pension which (for those retiring in the early 50s with 25+ years of service WHICH IS TYPICAL) has a best-estimate level annual cost of about 45% of pay. Subtract the 10% that the Officer contributes, and that leaves the Taxpayer responsible for the remaining 35%-of-pay.

        So YES, let’s make the trade ……….. you get a 4.7% of pay contribution into your 457 Plan and we END your DB pension.

        Deal ?
        ———————–

        And you wonder why I call Public Sector Unions/workers ……. MOOCHERS.

        Reply

        • Posted by El gaupo on May 13, 2019 at 11:17 am

          Nah. I’ll keep my DB plan. Thanks. Town doesn’t contribute a dime to my 457 plan. Shouldn’t have too. I get the pension. I max on the 457. Tier 2 and 3 guys are capped and state contributes 3% into a state run DC plan above the cap in salary. No 457 plan match. I’m fine w that.

          Reply

          • Posted by Tough Love on May 13, 2019 at 12:08 pm

            Quoting ………….. “Town doesn’t contribute a dime to my 457 plan.”

            That sounds like you’re complaining. What, the level annual 35% of pay that the Taxpayers are responsible for isn’t enough for you ?

            How do you spell MOOCHER ?

            Reply

          • Posted by El Gaupo on May 13, 2019 at 12:50 pm

            Uhh….too stupid to read my full post??? I guess you couldn’t figure out “shouldn’t have to” really meant “THEY shouldn’t have to”. 🤨As in they shouldn’t have to contribute to my 457. Administering the plan is enough. So long as they pay into and provide for my pension. You seem to have a hard time with comprehension sometimes. Like last weeks debacle that you caused on here in ref to my comment about Medicare for all!!!! You just can’t stand that I get a pension and are jealous of it. And by extension me!!! Why? If you want what I have you should’ve joined the police force.
            Your jealousy shows because every single comment I make, even if it is in favor of some reform. (Sick pay, disability pension, higher retirement age etc) you find fault with me. Why? Because as much as you won’t admit it, you don’t like me personally because I get a pension. YOU are the only one on this blog that personally, has an issue with me. Why? Because they are reasonable compassionate human beings. You on the other hand, are absolutely consumed by jealousy. Imagine that, being so jealous of someone who by just about every metric is middle class and remain so absent a lottery winning. I would again like to ask the masses on here: does TL appear to be have personal issues with me because I receive a taxpayer funded pension ? Earth, MJ, now retire Pat, Stanley, PS Drone, NJ2AZ????

            Reply

          • Posted by Anonymous on May 13, 2019 at 12:57 pm

            Want more proof Dopey?
            Last two sentences:
            No 457 plan match.
            I’m fine with that.

            Complaining? Hardly.
            Prove me(and my last lengthy post) wrong and issue me an apology(unconditional) in front of the masses here and I’ll concede that that will show that you are in fact human and can make mistakes and maybe you just didn’t read through the whole short post and by apologizing to me, shows that you are not just jealous of me as much as I think you are. Catch 22. By being caught doing exactly what I said (ragging on me when I don’t deserve it), if you don’t apologize then i win. If you do, I still win but not nearly as much. Just a smidge really. We all make mistakes TL. Difference is I own up to mine. Will you?

            Reply

          • Posted by Tough Love on May 13, 2019 at 1:58 pm

            El gaupo,

            The readers are still waiting for your apology for saying, quoting…..

            ” I also don’t care for the fact that some people pay big coin for health insurance and some don’t have it.”

            And after I called you out on it, you tries every which way from Sunday to weasel out of that VERY Clear statement.

            Reply

          • Posted by Tough Love on May 13, 2019 at 2:02 pm

            P.S. El gaupo, I have no “issue with you personally”.

            What I object to is the ludicrously excessive taxpayer-funded pensions (AND retire healthcare benefits that VERY few in the Private Sector get from their employers any longer) granted ALL of NJ’s Public Sector workers.

            Nothing but an enormous financial rape of NJ’s Taxpayers

            Reply

          • Posted by Anonymous on May 13, 2019 at 3:37 pm

            Nice deflection. Windbag

            You clearly stated that I said something that wasn’t what I had said. Your example of my earlier comment, well I explained (you say weasel out of) what I meant. That’s not enough for you. Excuse you don’t like me. The only thing that kills you more than my pension, is you being wrong and me being right. 😎

            Reply

          • Posted by Tough Love on May 13, 2019 at 3:43 pm

            El gaupo,

            I’ll make it VERY clear for you …………. I have a VERY big problem apologizing to MOOCHERS.

            And your trying to evade the “MOOCHER” title is the biggest and most ongoing deflection of all.

            Reply

  5. Posted by Anonymous on May 13, 2019 at 7:44 am

    El Gaupo, have to agree with TL on this one. What a private employers opts to match employee contributions I would guess depends on how well financially that company is doing and how well the accounts are managed…in the case of NJ way too much was promised without any possible way to pay for it all and NJ is definitely bankrupt in reality no matter how the politicians want to spin it…..

    The only question is how will it all play out and in the meantime those contributing the most and getting the least back continue to leave the state

    Reply

    • Posted by Anonymous on May 13, 2019 at 11:20 am

      TL advocates for equal….shouldn’t all private sector companies contribute the same???? Why not equal?? Lol. We know why. Everybody’s rate of compensation is different. Including public employees. Just pointing out her hypocrisy

      Reply

      • Posted by Tough Love on May 13, 2019 at 12:11 pm

        You’re misquoting me.

        I advocate for equal total compensation in Public/Private sector jobs that require comparable experience, education, skills, and knowledge.

        Reply

        • Posted by El gaupo on May 13, 2019 at 3:21 pm

          Ahh. You’ve misquoted me twice. You know damn well what I meant with the insurance for all quote. You just like beating a dead horse.
          And then above. And quite frankly, I feel you do have something against me personally. It is very easy to make me a target. From the safety of your keyboard, you call me names such as moocher, the epitome of greed, smiling ear to ear when your benefits are cut etc. So, forgive me if I don’t believe that you do indeed hold a grudge against me and any other public sector worker that you know in person or through a blog such as this. You don’t like me, your posts over time clearly indicate that. Sad. In real life, I’m a real nice guy. I’m not sure I can say the same for you….🙁

          Reply

          • Posted by Tough Love on May 13, 2019 at 3:50 pm

            Quoting …………..

            ” And quite frankly, I feel you do have something against me personally. ”

            I don’t, and the world (and NJ) doesn’t revolve around your issues or what you believe.

            P.S. Yes, you are but one of MANY MANY Public Sector MOOCHERS, and no more important than the others..

            P.P.S. Quoting …… “You don’t like me,”. You seem to be obsessed with the possibility of not-being-liked.

            Reply

          • Posted by El Gaupo on May 13, 2019 at 5:42 pm

            No. Just my opinion. I think you are a jealous fool for constantly name calling and being so hard headed. Why only you on here? Hmmm. Look in the mirror.

            Reply

          • Posted by Tough Love on May 13, 2019 at 6:03 pm

            El gaupo,

            I believe that your issue here …. and with me in particular …… is that you can’t bully me into submission, as many Officers do to so many in various ways (summons, threat of arrest, unnecessary searches, etc.).

            If your going to play here, get used to it …. we’re all equal in this venue. You’re not “special”, so get over it.

            Reply

          • Posted by El Gaupo on May 13, 2019 at 6:30 pm

            Hmmm. No one else has the issues that you do though. No one on here has ever accused me of bullying. Except you. Quite the contrary, most of the people on here think I’m a decent man. You don’t because I’m a cop(problem 1) and I get a pension(problem 2). I don’t care to beat you into submission. However, I will call you out when you are abusive and incorrect. Quite often you are both.

            Reply

          • Posted by Rex the Wonder Dog! on May 15, 2019 at 11:44 pm

            “…in the case of NJ way too much was promised without any possible way to pay for it all and NJ is definitely bankrupt in reality no matter how the politicians want to spin it…..”
            Not just NJ, pretty much 99% of ALL gov/public employee pension plans.

            Reply

          • Posted by Rex the Wonder Dog! on May 15, 2019 at 11:52 pm

            “I don’t care to beat you into submission. However, I will call you out when you are abusive and incorrect. Quite often you are both.”
            This is getting interesting 🙂

            I see a pay-per-view “grudge match” in the near future.

            Reply

  6. Posted by geo8rge on May 13, 2019 at 9:00 am

    If kids from NJ go to school elsewhere, why aren’t they returning to NJ? Possible answer, Honeywell HQ is in Charleston NC. But I don’t like his argument that if you give a subsidized education to someone in NJ, that person is more likely to work in NJ than elsewhere. NJ might be better off if undergraduates went elsewhere. Graduate students are more likely to be doing research that supports commerce.

    Reply

    • Posted by Tough Love on May 13, 2019 at 11:14 am

      Very true.

      Reply

      • Posted by El Gaupo on May 13, 2019 at 11:26 am

        This past week aside. The economic doom and gloom is not present right now. Of course it is cyclical. Most folks in the suburb I live in are thriving now. I hate Trump but you can’t argue that things are good financially. Most billionaire per capita live in San Fran. NYC in second. Except for Texas the whole east and west blue states are where the money is.
        Too much “I’m just lucky to have a job” mentality in the red states. I see it with my relatives in rural VA. Scared. I call it a loser mentality.
        In fact TL doesn’t gripe about this stuff out of necessity, she does it out of jealousy!!!
        TL—thou shall not covet the neighbors goods. Go get your own pension. 👅

        Reply

        • Posted by Tough Love on May 13, 2019 at 12:15 pm

          Taxpayers have MORE than sufficient justification to RENEGE on 50+% of your pension. Hopefully, we will be successful in finding a way to do so.

          Reply

          • Posted by El gaupo on May 13, 2019 at 3:32 pm

            You won’t. Keep wishing though. You may get the teachers and Dpw new hires. You’ll never get the cops.

            Reply

          • Posted by stanley on May 13, 2019 at 5:10 pm

            “Taxpayers have MORE than sufficient justification to RENEGE on 50+% of your pension.”

            Well! Some cuts are certainly in order. And the older cops will be past their used by dates and no longer able to make difficult calls. Surely, the boys at city hall can find some work for them emptying trash cans and shining the floor. That’s much more benevolent than kicking them in the teeth. The former constable will say, “what should I do after I get this floor polished, boss?” And TL replies, …

            Reply

          • Posted by Anonymous on May 13, 2019 at 5:36 pm

            Ouch…Stanley. Lol. There is dignity in all work. Very doubtful I’ll be there, but….I certainly don’t look down on anyone who works.

            Reply

        • Posted by stanley on May 13, 2019 at 12:46 pm

          Constable!!!! “Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.”

          It ain’t smart to count winnings while still at the table. Conventional wisdom is a suckers game. Just consider that in 1929 the Dow was at 395 and gold was $20 per ounce. By 1933, the Dow was trading at about 45 and gold had been revalued to $35 per ounce. I could go on but I really doubt that it would penetrate. Don’t spend it ’til you get it.

          One of the most fascinating aspects of this mess is that a great many people don’t realize how thin the ice is.

          Reply

          • Posted by El Gaupo on May 13, 2019 at 3:31 pm

            Huh? When have I ever given you the impression that I am fiscally irresponsible. It runs in cycles Stanley. And I’m sure you know damn well that if you kept that gold from 1933 until today you would have a small sliver of what you have if you invested in the stock market.
            Look, I have 24 years in and a pension fund that has $27B in it. There is no objective reason to squirrel away all my money and not enjoy myself(after saving a decent amount for your so called doomsday scenario) with some of the pension money I will receive.
            Because I’ve done exactly what you said (save for the future) and continue to do so every year, my ice isn’t so thin. THat is a direct result of living within my means. I keep my cars for a decade or more. Max on 457/Roth etc. 15 yr mortgage. I do just about everything financially that I am supposed to. Ok ok. I like to have some fun gambling once in a while. Legal Sportsbook doesn’t help. Lol.

            Reply

          • Posted by PS Drone on May 13, 2019 at 3:46 pm

            Maybe (hopefully) I am wrong Stanley, but I think EG has a reason to brag. The local LEO and (our overworked and underappreciated FF) pensions, I believe, are funded principally at the municipal level. Thus the level of underfunding of them is significantly less than that of the State-funded plans (Teachers, State Police, Judges, et al). That is one of the many reasons that property taxes in NJ are the highest in the land. They should be drastically cut and the benefit payment inception age raised to 66, but as a matter of rationality and fairness, not because of underfunding.

            Reply

          • Posted by stanley on May 13, 2019 at 5:36 pm

            ” And I’m sure you know damn well that if you kept that gold from 1933 until today…”

            Point well taken. But, if you made the same argument in 1965 (the Dow had risen from 250? in 1950 to 1000 in ’65) it would have been very similar to your point today. Between ’65 and ’82, the Dow went from about 1000 to about 1000 while the price of a new Impala went from about $3K to about $9K. And bonds were trashed. People were shunning 30yr treasuries yielding 16% (non-callable) and buying gold and silver, and oil drillers and producers. And now $11T in bonds (world-wide) are yielding no yield when held to maturity. And U.S. treasuries after taxes and inflation aren’t yielding anything.

            In the late 60s, people were buying the “nifty-fifty” and they got hammered.

            Reply

          • Posted by Anonymous on May 13, 2019 at 5:40 pm

            At least you can “lower” yourself to say point we’ll taken to a lowly MOOCHER like me. lol. There is a lady on this forum that admits that even when she is wrong she Can’t really bring herself to apologize to a MOOCHER. A private sector worker maybe she could. But def not someone with a pension. Lol.

            Reply

          • Posted by Anonymous on May 13, 2019 at 5:51 pm

            Yes. PS drone. You are correct. The towns fund the police and boro hall/dpw folks pensions. With a small exception from 20003-2005 they have paid the whole time and it is substantial. But in my case, and for most of police on NJ, the boro does not contribute to a 457 plan or pay the employer and employee portion of social security. Not saying it isn’t still a lot, just saying that bring it down by thousands a year.
            You also know that when you look at your tax bill, the municipal portion is about a third of the bill and police is about a third of that. Still a lot but the real driver is education. And that is so damn high in large part because we in the burbs get next to nothing in state aid but pay exorbitantly in income tax for education statewide. The cities are really sucking the tax dollars dry. But anyone with any dough, wants to raise their family in a safe town with great schools. Please don’t take it as bragging as much as giving it back to “you know who” when she starts in with her name calling.

            Reply

          • Posted by Tough Love on May 13, 2019 at 7:16 pm

            Quoting El gaupo re his DB pensions …..

            ” Not saying it isn’t still a lot”

            Boy, THAT’s an understatement.

            Let’s make it clearer to the readers, YOUR pension* (assuming that you will retire in the very early 50s with 25 years of service) has a value** upon retirement that is TYPICALLY about 4 times greater than that typically granted the few lucky Private Sector workers who are still accruing credits in DB pension Plans, and who retire with the SAME wages, the SAME years of service, and at the SAME age. And that 4 times rises to somewhere between 5 to 10 times for te vast majority of Private Sector workers who ONLY get a 401K Plan contribution instead of a DB pension.

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            * YOUR pension ….. 80% to 90% of the total cost of which is the responsibility of the Taxpayers.

            ** Value …… being the composite of the richness of the Pension Plan’s Formula-Factor and the VERY young age at which a pension can begin being collected WITHOUT an actuarial reduction.

            Reply

          • Posted by Anonymous on May 13, 2019 at 10:46 pm

            Windbag cherrypicker. Same ol’ same old.
            Jealous much?
            Why don’t you just admit you wish you had the compensation package I do and just move on? Everyone on here is sick of you already. (They are also sick of me I’m sure, but at least I’m entertaining). You’re about as fun as watching grass grow. 😅
            You’ll know I retired when I change by handle to Now Retired El Gaupo.
            Cops and paste. Copy and paste. No stats to back anything up. The readers are just supposed to beleive you. Lol. They don’t. They see your bias and resentment. And they don’t like it. Sad. Name calling cherry picking windbag. That’s enough on this thread. John is going to ban us both. See ya next hot topic, windbag.

            Reply

          • Posted by Tough Love on May 13, 2019 at 11:23 pm

            Quoting El gaupo …………… “Windbag cherrypicker”

            I’m assuming that you are responding to my comment just above yours. So tell us:……………..

            What did I cherry-pick? Are you disagreeing with my description of the ludicrously excessive richness of YOUR pension (vs what Private Sector taxpayers typically get) and 89% to 90% on the Taxpayers’ dime ?

            Truth hurt …………. uncomfortable hearing it and that you can’t bully me into shutting up (new territory for you, huh)?

            You sound like you need your meds.

            Reply

    • Posted by geo8rge on May 13, 2019 at 5:53 pm

      The $38K is probably the most recent quote for a family of 4. When I contacted Sweeney’s office they emailed me supporting information.

      The thing Sweeney keeps saying that I don’t get is if the gold plan costs less ‘out of pocket’ than the super platinum why won’t the teachers accept it? My guess is that for a few extra thousand dollars in ‘out of pocket costs’ they get way more in terms of advantages like all doctors being in network ect. How can you live to 90 collecting your pension check form a hospital bed without being super platinum healthy?

      Reply

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