Pension News Explodes

There will be a Frontline episode tomorrow on the “role of state governments and Wall Street in driving America’s public pensions into a multi-trillion-dollar hole” concentrating on  Kentucky and examining “the broader consequences for teachers, police, firefighters and other public employees everywhere.” Here is the trailer:
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Though not a big fan of Wall Street money managers, they are minor players in the pension crisis. If anything, the outsized returns they provided allowed many zombie plans (like New Jersey’s) to appear healthier than they actually were. It was, in no particular order, politicians, unions, actuaries, government regulators, the mainstream media, and participants themselves to the extent they trusted the aforementioned that bear far more blame for bankrupting so many pensions.

The City Journal got much closer to the truth:

57 responses to this post.

  1. Posted by skip3house on October 22, 2018 at 11:14 am

    Using existing already funded $$$, we need a system able to allocate to every individual their pension value to be invested as individual wants, rather than unfunded political promises that took us to here.

    Reply

  2. Mmmmm…….haven’t been paying too much attention to this blog lately but apparently not much has changed.…..NJ is still broke and pensions still a problem. Came across a WSJ article talking about how our homes (real estate) are the ultimate piggy bank for pension funding…what a shock

    Vote NO on upcoming ballot referendum………apparently the Wall Street Banksters just realized that NJ is broke and getting broker so in order to lend the state any more money they want to use our real estate (our homes and businesses) as collateral in that the state can just raise our real estate taxes in addition to the municipal raises in taxes if the state comes up short in any given year

    Gee I wonder how that will all work out…….

    Reply

    • Posted by boscoe on October 22, 2018 at 1:36 pm

      Not sure I understand. Can you explain or reference the WSJ article?

      Reply

    • Posted by MJ on October 22, 2018 at 2:01 pm

      Sorry…two separate things I was writing about….WSJ article applied to all states with insurmountable pension debt using real estate taxes as way to fund…will post the source once I locate it

      If voted in the NJ ballot question would make it okay for the state to borrow billions to fund school upgrades and technical schools but if the state can’t make a payment for any reason then an additional real estate tax will be charged in addition to the already high taxes we pay

      Reply

      • Posted by boscoe on October 22, 2018 at 11:50 pm

        OK, thanks. I read your comments above and below and also the sites you reference. Just to be specific though: there is a big difference between real estate values/property taxes being the ultimate backer of generic public pension liabilities when the s… hits the fan; as opposed to New Jersey issuing general obligation bonds for school projects and upgrades. The principal and interest payments associated with those bonds ($500 million, I believe) are guaranteed by the full faith and credit of the state of New Jersey. Which means that debt, along with other bonded debt, goes to the head of the line as far as state budget priorities are concerned. They will be, figuratively speaking, paid out of the first dollars the state receives and everything else will get bumped back a bit. So it is extremely unlikely (never say never) that a statewide real estate tax will ever need to be imposed just to make bond repayments. But that boiler plate language is needed to assure bond holders that they can expect repayment by the state under any circumstances.

        Reply

        • Posted by MJ on October 23, 2018 at 8:14 am

          Boscoe thanks for clarifying it a bit but I’m still going to vote NO……..I guess the pension payments might get pushed to the end of the line but either way you know that our taxes will continue to go up

          Reply

  3. Posted by Tough Love on October 22, 2018 at 1:43 pm

    Quoting ………………

    “It was, in no particular order, politicians, unions, actuaries, government regulators, the mainstream media, and participants themselves to the extent they trusted the aforementioned that bear far more blame for bankrupting so many pensions.”

    Actually, that order is ….. in-order-of-biggest “blame” ……. not bad, although I flip the positions of the actuaries and the Gov’t regulators

    BUT ………….. Taxpayers must not forget that REGARDLESS of whom is to “blame” (and in what proportions), it is indeed the Public Sector WORKERS/RETIREES that HAVE BEEN and STILL ARE the FINANCIAL BENEFICIARIES of these ludicrously excessive pensions (AND benefit) “promises”, so THAT is where Taxpayers must rightfully look to right this wrong …………. by RENEGING on the 50+% share (MORE for Police with the richest, and hence MOST egregious pension & benefits) that assuredly would NOT have been granted in the absence of the Public-Sector-Union/Elected-Official COLLUSION, with the former BUYING the favorable votes of the latter (on Public Sector pay, pensions, and benefits) with BRIBES disguised as campaign contributions and election support.

    Reply

    • Posted by In God we trust. on October 22, 2018 at 7:49 pm

      Lay off the Police and Fireman. Put the blame where it belongs on the State for not making payments for years,it was Whitman who declared a pension holiday and never paid in a penny. You seem to have a grudge against the police and fireman in particular, is it because you received a ticket or got busted for a crime, perhaps a fireman didn’t let you sound his siren or you wanted to become a policeman or fireman and couldn’t qualify. Whatever the reason, it is quite evident you have a personal problem and I suggest you get over it and move on.

      Reply

      • Posted by Amen on October 22, 2018 at 8:07 pm

        Police and fire are not special on the taxpayers dime. They should receive no more than tha maximum SS payout.

        Reply

        • Posted by El gaupo on October 22, 2018 at 10:41 pm

          No…in God we trust is right. She is very jealous, as are you Amen of police officers authority, salary and in particular pension and benifits. Even in high priced NJ the cost of PD salaries is but a few hundred dollars a year. Most of the folks on here bitching are just venting. I was lucky enough to choose a profession that had a retirement plan being offered. That’s all. Not gonna be rich, just hopefully a comfortable retirement. MJ and that Arizona fellow are the only ones (not including Douglas/earth etc) that seem like normal dudes that you can actually have a conversation with over a couple beers. TL is beyond help and that dude Stanley comments from his underground bunker I think, while stocking up for Armageddon.

          Reply

          • Posted by El gaupo on October 22, 2018 at 10:44 pm

            TL is gonna less the charge to have me lose half my pension benifits….oh wait, all she does is complain on this and many other blogs about having a problem with EQUAL.

          • Posted by Tough Love on October 22, 2018 at 11:55 pm

            Quoting ………… “Lay off the Police and Fireman. ”

            Why, Safety-worker pensions are (BY FAR) the richest and MOST EGREGIOUS ……. routinely being 4 to 6 times greater in value upon retirement than the retirement security benefits typically granted comparably situated (in wages, age at retirement, and years of service) Private Sector workers by their employers ………. and with Taxpayers (NOT the workers) responsible for all but the 10% to 15% of the total cost of these LUDICROUSLY ECXCESSIVE pensions actually paid for by the workers own contributions (INCLUDING all the investment earnings thereon).

            Sure ……….. we all want to love, respect and take pictures with safety workers. What few realize is that their absurd pensions & benefits are not necessary, just, fair to Taxpayers and are nothing but a massive financial rape of unsuspecting taxpayers.
            ————————————-

            P.S. buster ……….. I have ZERO personal problem or beef with Police (or ANY Public Sector worker). I’m work in the Financial Sector, am well educated, have a great deal of experience, and am VERY well informed about all things pension.

            Sounds like YOU may be now (or in the future) be expecting a Safety-worker pension. If Taxpayers reneged on 75% of it, it would STILL be more than what a comparably-situated Private Sector worker could expect to receive from his/her employer.

          • Posted by Tough Love on October 22, 2018 at 11:58 pm

            El Gaupo,

            Just ANOTHER of your (as a soon to retire Police Officer in the very low-crime bedroom communities of Bergen County NJ) SELF-INTERESTED comments.

  4. Posted by MJ on October 22, 2018 at 2:10 pm

    http://www.illinoispolicy.org/chicago-taxpayers-piggy-bank-for-pensions/

    OOOPS sorry wrong paper when I posted WSJ….so many articles it is hard to keep track

    Reply

  5. Posted by MJ on October 22, 2018 at 2:30 pm

    //www.dollarcollapse.com/pension-crisis-stealth-mortgage/

    Here is another article

    Reply

  6. Posted by MJ on October 22, 2018 at 2:31 pm

    Ok here is the WSJ article

    4closurefraud.org/2018/08/07/wsj-the-stealth-pension-mortgage-on-your-house/

    Reply

  7. Posted by NJ2AZ on October 22, 2018 at 6:00 pm

    i always wonder, and i think some people may have commented on it before: What (if any) enforcement arm do the courts have to back up any “PENSIONS MUST BE PAID” rulings?

    Or rather, whats to keep the legislature and executive from ignoring them.

    Reply

    • Here is one method, in Illinois:

      “Under that law, municipalities that fail to make full contributions to their police or fire pension funds can see state money meant for the local government diverted directly to the pension funds instead.”

      https://www.illinoispolicy.org/crowding-out-chicago-pension-fund-demands-intercept-of-state-grant-money/

      Reply

      • Posted by Tough Love on October 23, 2018 at 12:03 am

        And did you note the consequence when that was done to one town in Illinois?

        With WAY less revenue coming in, they terminated a boatload of Police.

        So essentially the RETIRED police (who want every excessive $ they were promised) SCREWED the younger/low-service Police “actives”. So much for “Brother-in-Blue” when money is involved.

        Reply

        • Posted by MJ on October 23, 2018 at 8:21 am

          TL I don’t know that I want a “boatload” of police terminated in my town…..I like seeing the cops riding around checking things out, saying hello, If someone needs to call they come right away………maybe that’s why there isn’t much crime where I live……I’m sure that municipalities can cut out a lot of waste elsewhere like the over bloated school systems and over loaded municipal workers, squandered resources on unneeded projects, perks, etc

          Reply

          • Posted by El gaupo on October 23, 2018 at 9:36 am

            Amen MJ. Happy to serve folks like you.

          • Posted by Tough Love on October 23, 2018 at 11:06 am

            A VERY good option would be for a SAMLL force of gun-toting Police Officer to address REAL “crimes”, and the balance (perhaps 2/3 of them) MUCH lower-paid/pensioned/benefitted addressing all the VERY VERY routine things like traffic accidents and health emergencies.

          • Posted by El gaupo on October 23, 2018 at 11:30 am

            Great idea TL. In smaller forces that is exactly how it works. If we have an arson we call the county. If we have a bomb threat we call the county (obviously we respond and secure scene etc. ) if we have a fatal crash we call the county(for years that was me😀). Most of these squads are made up of a few full timers and as host of part timers. Our agency has two detectives. The rest (more than the 2/3, do exactly what you say. Most guys do have a niche where they develop further—fatal mvc, swat, drug recognition officer (for dwi stops involving no or little alcohol). In the meantime, they answer calls for service. Medicals, domestic violence and car crashes and even the squirrel in the house🙄. Beleive me w 23.5 years on I’ll take the squirrel. If you do cut PD you would be giving something up like that. Which is why most PD usually stay around the same number of officers in these built out suburbs. Again, you pay Prob in the neighborhood of $2 a day for all that. $.67 a shift. How much of that is going to pensions payments. And would it really make a difference to your bottom line? Most people who complain about their taxes find fault with the school portion. If they broke it down they would see that police fire and Dpw don’t really sick th that hard. Some areas the cops are 20 min away and you take your garbage to a recycling center. Obviously it is cheaper to live there.

          • Posted by El gaupo on October 23, 2018 at 11:33 am

            Of course we get paid the same which is what you appear to be advocating against. But in spite of all the specialized areas of law enforcement, most cops get hurt and killed doing those mundane things like car stops and responding to calls (domestic violence in particular).

          • Posted by Tough Love on October 23, 2018 at 11:54 am

            Quoting ……………..
            “Again, you pay Prob in the neighborhood of $2 a day for all that. $.67 a shift. How much of that is going to pensions payments. And would it really make a difference to your bottom line?”

            Doesn’t really “matter” if your #s are correct or not.

            The FACTS show that your wages + your pensions & benefits ….. in Total are VASTLY excessive. Do we not have BETER/more-appropriate needs for those funds other than UNNECESSARILY overcompensating you? Of heavens, just charging LESS in taxes?

            ———————————-

            And every time I pass a local PSE&G or Verizon crew working in the streets, I want to PUKE, seeing 1 (often 2) Police cars ….being paid about $1,000 for 8 hours (with a Minimum of 4/hrs pay, even if needed for less time) …. with the Officers either doing NOTHING, on their cell phones, or distracting the actual workers.

            And it doesn’t matter that that TOTALLY unnecessary pay ……….. when in MOST case reflective cones is sufficient, and sometimes a utility-supplied Flagman at $150/day is MORE THAN sufficient ……….. gets reflected in our Utility Bills instead of our property taxes.

            The Taxpayers/Ratepayers need to wise up to this BS ….. and DEMAND that is END.

          • Posted by Tough Love on October 23, 2018 at 11:59 am

            Quoting El Gaupo ……………………..

            “But in spite of all the specialized areas of law enforcement, most cops get hurt and killed doing those mundane things like car stops and responding to calls (domestic violence in particular).”

            While you be correct as to the CAUSE of such deaths, the RATE of such deaths is so VERY low, that Police are now even on the US Gov’t BLS’s list of the most dangerous occupations …………. virtually ALL of whom (perhaps with the exception of commercial airline pilots) make 1/4 to 1/2 of your compensation.

          • Posted by El gaupo on October 23, 2018 at 12:44 pm

            Safety first TL.

          • Posted by Stephen Douglas on October 23, 2018 at 2:05 pm

            “….being paid about $1,000 for 8 hours”

          • Posted by Tough Love on October 23, 2018 at 2:06 pm

            El Gaupo …………

            Taxpayers should pay for the VALUE of the service provided ………… and on that measure, Police ae VASTLY overcompensated ………….. as in my Police Officer VS Flagman (at 1/5 the cost) example above.

          • Posted by El gaupo on October 23, 2018 at 2:39 pm

            Call your pseg contact person. Voice your discontent. It is in THIER contract that they need police at the jobs they work. Both electric and gas. Verizon not so much. You must love seeing these high compression gas lines going in in Bergen county. Overtime up the wazoo. 👍🤑

          • Posted by Tough Love on October 23, 2018 at 3:01 pm

            Stephen Douglas/Earth,

            Why don’t you CALL a few Police Dept.’s in Bergen County before YAPPING off mouth ?
            ————————–

          • Posted by El gaupo on October 23, 2018 at 3:11 pm

            Stephen Douglas /earth. I love ya man, but I need to honest. She is def at the higher end (Lt. —-Really Most higher ranks don’t get Ot) veteran sgt see almost that but not quite that. Very close though. Younger patrolmen don’t get anywhere near that.

          • Posted by Earth on October 23, 2018 at 4:27 pm

            Earth to Brother Love:

            Your claim… You back it up.

            Also, a reflective cone ain’t the same thing as a black and white.

            “More than 1,000 people are killed and 40,000 injured (including drivers) in US highway work zones each year, according to the Federal Highway Administration. Work zone fatalities have increased 50 percent between 1997 and 2004. One of Sterndahl’s own crew members was killed in 1990 when a drunk driver plowed through a work zone at about 80 miles per hour.”

            ————————————————-
            “She is def at the higher end”

            LMAO: “She” is always at the higher end, except when she’s way over the top.

          • Posted by El gaupo on October 23, 2018 at 6:49 pm

            Well said my friend. You’re correct. I’m sure pseg insurance for their workers go down when cops are present. In fact, most of the workers are very happy we are there. Folks don’t listen to them or a flagman and definitely not signs and cones. “But I live there!!!” “Ma’am, we sent you letters and posted signs on utility poles saying your street was being paved today and the machines are in front of your driveway right now”. “But I live there!!!” “I agree you do live there. But you will need to wait or walk”. “But I live there”. “Ahhhhhh!!!!” Now you think that lady gonna listen to a flagman?? Lol. I love our residents but often they think there you know what doesn’t stink…and in fact want us to wipe their ass for them. Haha. After 23 years I don’t get mad. I laugh and walk away.

          • Posted by Tough Love on October 23, 2018 at 7:43 pm

            Quoting are resident Union-supporting charlatan Stephen Douglas/Earth ./…

            “”More than 1,000 people are killed and 40,000 injured (including drivers) in US highway work zones each year, according to the Federal Highway Administration.”

            WOW did you CHNAGE what we’re talking about ……… NOT on a “highway”, but modest to low-traffic town/Count roads. Like I said your a charlatan.

            We DEFINITELY do NOT need police (at $1,000/day) at such sites…….. cones are sufficient perhaps 75% of the time, and $150/day Flagmen fort the 25% balance.

          • Posted by Stephen Douglas on October 23, 2018 at 8:16 pm

            WOW , I didn’t CHNAGE nothing. Local roads can be as dangerous as interstates.

            It’s well known that visible police presence greatly reduces speeding and other traffic violations. That also goes at work sites. Traffic cones won’t cut it. “Flaggers” have been known to be nudged aside on the bumpers of cars of irate drivers. Keep spouting that $125/hour bullshit and it may eventually come true sometime in the next decade.
            ——————-

            AB-561 Highway workers: assault and battery.(2009-2010)

            Increases the penalty for assault and abuse of highway workers, public or private. It’s not a game out there.

            http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billAnalysisClient.xhtml?bill_id=200920100AB561#

            “With increasing regularity, these workers report becoming the victims of assault and battery by motorists ranging from verbal abuse to having objects thrown at them or, in a few cases, actually being struck by a vehicle. Overall, the incidence of motorist impatience, aggressive driving, and road rage, appear to be increasing. Unfortunately, local streets and road workers, who may be perceived as the cause of traffic congestion and delay, often become the targets of motorists’ ire. Examples of particularly serious recent incidents have included an employee shot with a paint ball gun, another shot at with a BB gun, and one attacked with jumper cables. Employees who work on local streets and roads believe that verbal abuse is very common and that the incidence of more serious incidents may be increasing.”

            ————————————————
            AS PASSED BY THE ASSEMBLY, this bill revised the definition of “highway worker” to include a contractor while under contract with Caltrans; an employee of a city, or county, or city and county who performs maintenance, repair, or construction of highways; or local streets and road infrastructure for the purpose of enhanced penalties for assault or battery upon a “highway worker.”

            “…your a charlatan.” ?

          • Posted by El gaupo on October 23, 2018 at 10:24 pm

            TL. Per vehicle miles driven Interstates are the safest roads for travelling with the fewest deaths per mile. Why? No head on collisions. And no turns. A worker hit by a car traveling 40 mph is probably not going to survive or will be in bad shape. As I said safety first. Even with rates north of $100 per hour. Don’t let it bother you. Be thankful you have brave men and women ready willing and able to protect these utility workers, whether high in the air jn buckets or in a hole in the ground. “But I live there……”. Lol. The gun and the ticket book hold more sway over motorists than does a hard hat I’m afraid. If you were in a hole working on a gas line you’d rather have a cop and his flashing lights on scene. Instead of traffic cones. “But my GPS said to got this way!!!! Let me through”.

          • Posted by Tough Love on October 24, 2018 at 12:36 am

            El Gaupo ……..…. Taxpyers/Ratepayer have a right to expect that those who make choices that can SIGNIFICANLY impact costs consider the “value-added” of one choice over another.

            NOBODY …….. with a brain, no bias, and no vested interest ……… would under such review, come to the conclusion that a Policeman, “with rates north of $100 per hour” (using El Gaupo’s own words) constitutes a positive “value-added” vs a $20/hr Flagman.

          • ” An Annapolis man with a history of convictions on battery and assault charges was being held on $100,000 bail yesterday, charged with the beating of a 48-year-old flagman after being stopped in traffic at a roadway work site.”

            ” An 80-year-old Monroe County man faces several charges after he continued driving after striking a flagman working in a PennDOT construction on Route 196 in Coolbaugh Township Wednesday morning, police said.”

            ” A flagman directing traffic at a construction site on Spring Street in La Mesa was hit by a slow-moving car Thursday, police said.”

            ” Police are looking for three men who allegedly assaulted a flag man working on a Highway 50 off-ramp in Gatineau, Que., on Tuesday night.” ” When officers arrived, they found a 24-year-old signalling company employee suffering from minor injuries. He and witnesses told investigators that two passengers in an orange Pontiac Wave got out of their vehicle and threatened him with a baseball bat.”

            ” Brian Daniel, 55, of St. Thomas was killed after he was struck by a pickup truck while directing traffic in a construction zone on the Hwy. 3 bypass at the Burwell Rd. overpass Wednesday just after 11 a.m.”

            ” A 95-year-old driver hit a flagman on a Stafford County road-widening crew Wednesday, sending the victim to a Northern Virginia hospital, police said.”
            ———————–

            ” NORWALK, Conn. — It’s a consensus between Common Council President Bruce Kimmel and the Norwalk Police Department: Flagmen are not adequate in most situations where construction is being done on Norwalk streets, even if it’s only a “residential road.”

            “I don’t think that drivers ever slow down for flagmen, and they do for police officers. I have watched some near disasters,” Kimmel said. “I don’t see any reason for excluding roads in the city. Not a lot of traffic doesn’t mean you can’t have a disaster,”

            ” WARRENSBURG (AP) — The Missouri State Highway Patrol says a flagman for a construction crew was killed during an accident involving four vehicles.”

            https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/video-shows-suv-striking-construction-flagger-in-hit-and-run-1.3481611

            Sorry, Brother Love, a flagman just doesn’t have the same authority and respect as a police officer. Perhaps if we issued them weapons and gave them early retirement?

          • Posted by Tough Love on October 24, 2018 at 8:36 am

            Stephen,

            In any such discussion, examples can always be found that suggest the SAFEST path (hence usually FAR more expensive) saves lives.

            DId you know that evaluating the efficacy/approval of new drugs, the FDA places a “dollar-value” on human life because of the potential lives saved, and the beneficial OVERALL good-of-the-many OUTWEIGHS the loss of a few lives, and the lower cost of a different class of drugs may make it more widely available and/or less costly to Gov’t payees.

            It’s called “valued-added”, and the UPSIDE of hiring the Flagman FAR-OUTWEIGHS that of (5x higher-paid) Police in any such analysis.

          • It’s not either/or. Use of a flagman is determined by the type of workzone/lane closure. Police presence is in addition to flaggers, cones, signs, barrier vehicles etc. Most workzones don’t require flaggers at all. They still have workers exposed to errant drivers, and drivers exposed to unusual conditions… a recipe for potential disaster. Police presence can reduce the chance of damage or injury to both the workers and the public.

            $125/hr. is an extreme outlier for cost. The average is much lower, and a mere fraction of the cost of most construction projects. Even what looks to you like a “small” job could easily involve thousands or tens of thousands of dollars in manpower, equipment, and materials.

            Next time you pass a workzone, mebbe you should stop and advise them on their methods. “What the hell are you using a backhoe for? All you need here is a trencher and a couple of jackhammers! ”

            Sidewalk Superintendents don’t make much money, but that work crew with a combined experience of several lifetimes would really appreciate you telling them everything they are doing wrong.

            The Federal Highway Administration has a Manual on Uniform Traffic Control Devices ( https://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/ )
            It spells out safety technologies, traffic control tools, and traffic management techniques gleaned from over eighty years of combined nationwide professional experience.

            Tell them they’re doing it wrong. Then tell the town council or county board of supervisors (who are actually responsible for safety and loss control) that that patrolman just costs too much.

            And you don’t need that damn backhoe either, wastrels!

          • Posted by Tough Love on October 24, 2018 at 5:49 pm

            Quoting …………….

            “Use of a flagman is determined by the type of workzone/lane closure. ”

            Not anywhere near where I live in NJ. Even on the MOST LOCAL of roads, there is NEVER a “Flagman”, and always 1 (or 2) Police cars/Officers …. most often BEHIND the coned-off area doing absolutely NOTHING.

    • Posted by El gaupo on October 22, 2018 at 10:29 pm

      The mayor and council could also be held in contempt of court if they are in fact ordered to pay the bills. The same way they would if they didn’t pay a contractor who removed mold from Boro Hall.

      Reply

      • Posted by Tough Love on October 23, 2018 at 12:07 am

        Wrong ………… the Legislature has FINAL say over appropriations of Money (so say the NJ Supreme Count) …………. which is why you no longer get COLAs.

        If the Legislature won’t (or can’t because there simply isn’t enough money to do so), NOBODY can “force” them to do so.

        Reply

        • Posted by El gaupo on October 23, 2018 at 7:19 am

          There is a difference between won’t and can’t. At this point, most towns in NJ would still fall into the won’t category if they indeed failed to pay what the state told them to pay and there would indeed be consequences for that.

          PS. Point taken from the previous point. And BtW—-loved the buster comment. Lol.

          Reply

          • Posted by Tough Love on October 23, 2018 at 11:09 am

            My comment that included that (time-stamped October 22, 2018 at 11:55 pm above) was posted as a reply to YOU.

            It was intended to be a reply to commentator “In God We Trust”.

          • Posted by Amen on October 23, 2018 at 6:44 pm

            I won’t pay a dime toward your ridiculous pension.
            I hope others join me.

          • Posted by El gaupo on October 23, 2018 at 7:19 pm

            Amen, doesn’t bother me a bit. Is it because you are moving out of state? Something I advocate for upon retirement. Or is it because you still in unemployed in your mommy’s basement and she pays the taxes? Haha.
            My guess is the latter. Either way I could give a fuck if you pay my pension (you would have to live in the town a work in) or not. If you’d like an ice cream and pizza for your contribution I’d be more than happy to oblige…on second thought nah. Lol.

  8. The recent Intercept article is a complete hack job, too.

    Reply

  9. Posted by MJ on October 24, 2018 at 5:03 pm

    TL do you really think that your taxes are going to go down if towns stop posting police at road construction sites? do you think your taxes are going to go down if towns terminate a few cops? Do you really believe that your taxes will go down if pensions were cut in half tomorrow??

    Please……..the examples posted of the flag men being attached or assaulted is most likely what precipitated companies requiring police be present

    And I thought that it was already established that the companies doing the work paid for the police presence at work sites??

    Reply

    • Posted by Tough Love on October 24, 2018 at 9:31 pm

      Quoting …………..

      “And I thought that it was already established that the companies doing the work paid for the police presence at work sites??”

      If the police get PAID $$$$$………… someone is INDEED picking up the bill. Yes, the Utility reimburses the town and then includes those reimbursements as an “expense” in the establishment of the utility rate paid by the Town’s residents.

      Financially, there is ZERO difference to the Town’s residents if these incredibly EXCESSIVE payments to Police ae included in their Tax bill or their Utility Bill.

      Reply

  10. Posted by Tough Love on October 24, 2018 at 7:29 pm

    Quoting …………..

    “TL do you really think that your taxes are going to go down if towns stop posting police at road construction sites? do you think your taxes are going to go down if towns terminate a few cops?”

    MJ, you’re missing the “point”………. the road construction payments are included (as an “:expense” of the Utility in rate-setting and Utility-Board approval where needed) in our Electric & Gas bills, not out taxes ………… which is our Elected Officials condoning this (as they assuredly had to APPROVE these arrangement …… wording in a Union’s contract with IT’S workers wouldn’t cut it alone) or simply agreeing to “go-along” as “it won’t cost the town anything” ………. IGNORING the unnecessary enrichment of the Police Officers on the residen’t dime. And why ? the same reason why they grant Ludicrously excessive pensions and benefits ……… because they want and need Public Sector Union campaign contribution to fund their campaigns. The whole structure is AMTERIALLLY detrimental to the town’s residents.

    Reply

  11. Posted by Stephen Douglas on October 24, 2018 at 11:01 pm

    Mia culpa?

    We just AMTERIALLLY wasted perfectly good bandwidth debating different topics. Any work project on any right-of-way requires traffic control and work zone protection. Sometimes on smaller jobs, lane closures require more men, equipment, and time than the job itself. It’s logical, and it’s required by law.

    My point being that the visible presence of police is a calming effect on drivers and prevents or reduces accidents (and outright assaults). And cities/counties/states have determined them to be cost effective. It’s logical, and it’s required by law.

    Your “point”, apparently, is that police presence provides no protection at all, and is only a perk provided to increase police pay.

    Got me, dude, I can’t argue with that. Because it’s asinine. Sounds like something Trump would tweet at 3 AM.

    Reply

    • Posted by Tough Love on October 24, 2018 at 11:27 pm

      Quoting …………………

      “My point being that the visible presence of police is a calming effect on drivers and prevents or reduces accidents (and outright assaults). And cities/counties/states have determined them to be cost effective. It’s logical, and it’s required by law. ”

      (1) “Calming effect”? Perhaps. Prevents or reduces accidents? Perhaps a wee wee wee little bit ……… and like I argued above, under a “value-added” analysis, it’s not worth the substantial extra cost of “Police” vs a “Flagman” (at 1/5 the cost).

      (2) And NO, while established practice …………….. and PERHAPS, there is something in a Utility-worker Union contract calling for Police presence at such sites ……… NOBODY has been able to cite a law in NJ REQUIRING that Police be present vs a Flagman.
      ———————————-

      Quoting ………… “Your “point”, apparently, is that police presence provides no protection at all, and is only a perk provided to increase police pay. ”

      There you go AGAIN………… I NEVER stated that Police provide “no protection at all” (YOUR words, NOT mine ….Mr. Charlatan), only that a “value-added” analysis would CLEARLY show that the VERY substantial incremental cost of Police vs a Flagman (5 times greater) is VERY clearly NOT worth it.

      Reply

  12. Posted by Stephen Douglas on October 25, 2018 at 12:11 am

    Good thing you’re not in charge.

    Reply

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