5500 Day After – Central States

Another 5500 filing season has passed leaving some time, but little energy, for this blogging. Fortunately there were a lot of calendar year filings recently submitted for pensions in the news so it is the perfect time to do some updating – starting with the plan that is most likely to bring the PBGC (and the entire private pension system) down – Central States.

We had some 5500 history in an earlier blog through 2016. Based on the 2017 filing:

Plan Name: Central States, Southeast & Southwest Areas Pension Plan

EIN/PN: 36-6044243/001

Total participants @ 12/31/17: 390,079 including:

  • Retirees: 197,655
  • Separated but entitled to benefits: 127,590
  • Still working: 64,834

Asset Value (Market) @ 1/1/17: 15,267,533,341

Value of liabilities using RPA rate (3.05%) @ 1/1/17: $55,992,745,092 including:

  • Retirees: $31,833,489,077
  • Separated but entitled to benefits: $14,073,371,806
  • Still working: $10,085,884,209

Funded ratio: 27.27%

Unfunded Liabilities as of 1/1/17: $40,725,2121,751

Asset Value (Market) as of 12/31/17: $15,011,652,100

Contributions 2017 (MB): $809,879,331

Contributions 2017 (H): $621,562,237

Payouts 2017: $2,813,547,330

Expenses 2017: $72,505,533

Historical information going back to 2007 in a spreadsheet:

 

25 responses to this post.

  1. Posted by skip3house on October 16, 2018 at 5:09 pm

    This is a reason computers exist…Why is there no option to use funding dates, personal contributions, interest, date employed range,…to calculate present values of each pension member? This would suggest only fair individual settlement for all underfunded pensions.
    How accurate is the funded ratio to use for values now versus ‘promised’ ?

    Reply

  2. Posted by NJ2AZ on October 16, 2018 at 5:56 pm

    Considering downward pressure on asset prices once some of these funds start having to liquidate en masse to meet obligations, one has to assume the funding situation is even MORE dire.

    “70% funded” based on the phony .gov bookkeeping = 40% funded using realistic actuarial standards = ???% funded once you consider actual asset values once the dumping begins?

    Reply

  3. Wait until the next downturn arrives, it is going to be Financial-Pension Chaos…

    Reply

    • Posted by Redfaced actuary on October 17, 2018 at 9:57 am

      Right Seesaw, with an equity allocation over 50%, the next downturn is the final/death blow to this fund and many, many others. At least members of ERISA covered plans can hope to receive payments up to the PBGC benefit limits. Public sector members will get absolutely hammered, e.g. 20 cents on the dollar. The ensuring fights (should they get bailed out? who pays? how do we allocate the funds we have? who won’t vote to save my pension?) will result in blood in the streets – literally.

      Reply

      • Posted by El gaupo on October 17, 2018 at 10:49 am

        Some will, some won’t. A bit over dramatic—- And folks won’t be getting $.20 cents on the dollar.
        But you are right in terms of blood in the street. Nothing, and I mean nothing is more dangerous than a man who has absolutely nothing to live for. Applicable for men who have lost their families through divorce or worse and those who become chronically unemployed or both. If some crazy wants to get you…he’s gonna get you.

        Reply

        • Posted by Tough Love on October 17, 2018 at 9:46 pm

          If the Public Sector Plans go belly-up, the FIRST thing we should do is revoke the gun permits of all retired Police.

          Reply

      • Posted by Tough Love on October 17, 2018 at 9:45 pm

        Quoting ……………..

        “who won’t to vote to save my pension” ?

        Answer ………….. EVERYONE who understands that Public Sector pensions are ROUTINELY 3 to 6 times greater in value upon retirement than those of the comparably situated Private Sector Taxpayers who would be asked to bail them out.

        And you can bet we (Private Sector Taxpayers) who are knowledgeable about the LUDICROUS generosity of Public Sector Plans, will spread that information far & wide should we ever be called upon to bail out Public Sector Plans.

        Reply

        • Posted by El gaupo on October 18, 2018 at 8:22 am

          First off, who will collect those guns TL you? Or active cops who won’t really give a shit either. Lol. Think about that one.
          Of course you would vote to cut me pension, that is why we do not have a true democracy where everyone votes on every issue. You would NOT vote to cut it if the purge movie was a reality. What i meant to say is if you had school age children in the utopia of red state America, particularly the states I mentioned then you probably would NOT vote to cut the pensions of teachers when faced with what happened. In fact, the populace supported the educators They really had no choice. Homeschool or have your schools suck even more than they did.
          The pension is a MAJOR draw to this job. Your qualified candidate pool will shrink considerably without it. Everyone talks about the next big recession on here. Employment is at lowest level since Nixon!! You all think that I wouldn’t be able to find employment elsewhere. Wrong. In fact, I’ll be looking soon in a few years. Lol. Police pensions ain’t changing anytime soon TL. The others maybe. But be careful what you wish for. Jersey colleges anyway are seeing many fewer education majors. How would you reverse that trend to ensure quality educators in the future? Serious question

          Reply

          • Posted by Tough Love on October 18, 2018 at 9:43 am

            The lack of a HUGE “qualified” candidate pool is a farce …………. and with hundreds applying for each open position, anyone with a brain understands that.

            Police make it LOOK LIKE VERY few are qualified to convince Taxpayers that filling the position is difficult so compensation must be kept at the LUDICRUOUSLY high levels they are now.

          • Posted by El gaupo on October 18, 2018 at 10:17 am

            You may think that. I have been in the business for 23 years and have seen it happening, all in the last decade. You may think what you think, but you are patently incorrect. Ask your local borough administrator, since you wouldn’t trust the Police chiefs response. I’m serious, do it. You will be surprised. I know first hand. I am responsible for going through the resumes. There are not nearly as many as when I got hired. You take the pension away,charge a fortune for health benifits AND continue to limit raises to 2% max a year and you will no doubt get what you pay for. I can provide facts. You on the other hand, babble the same nonsense over and over again. In your world, public employees represent folks who couldn’t cut it in the private sector, but at the same time get a better deal than the majority of private sector workers. How does that one work?? You have absolutely no idea if you can retain a qualified police force with a 401k. I will tell you no, simply because an officer will be free to leave after 10 or less years on the job if he wants(no pension to hang around for). With shitty raises and severely watered down bennies, I sincerely ask you what will keep officers on the job where viable alternatives exist??

          • Posted by El gaupo on October 18, 2018 at 10:24 am

            And forget the police for a moment. What will you personally advocate for as a solution to our lack of high school graduates pursueing education as a major??? That is the first problem, a more pressing issue that retaining cops at this point. Who will be teaching our next generation? The country already is pathetically behind in many categories in education. That trend will not get reversed. But hey, ya saved a hundred bucks a year on pension costs so all good……
            Please educate ME if I am off base here. Other states are the Petri dish here. What say you , queen of the private sector working class heroes?

          • Posted by Tough Love on October 18, 2018 at 10:43 am

            Quoting El Gaupo ……………..

            “In your world, public employees represent folks who couldn’t cut it in the private sector, but at the same time get a better deal than the majority of private sector workers.”

            and …..

            “With shitty raises and severely watered down bennies, I sincerely ask you what will keep officers on the job where viable alternatives exist?”

            ——————————

            Yes, I believe that MANY couldn’t “cut-in” in the Private Sector where ….. actually accomplishing things EVERY DAY is necessary to keep your job, your employer can (in most cases) fire you for no cause at all, and those who typically make over $75K/yr OFTEN work overtime without ANY additional pay, and where decisions as to retirement security and healthcare benefits & premium are 100% up to the employer.

            Viable alternatives ? And exactly what “skills” does the typical Police Officer possess that would enable them to find a position (in the STEM world of technology… required for higher-paying jobs) that would earn them ANYWHERE near the compensation Taxpayers are now FORED to pay them ?

          • Posted by Stanley on October 18, 2018 at 11:20 am

            Constable Gaupo Uno: “Please educate ME if I am off base here.”

            You are very far off base and I have limited time right now. For one, when the pensions start failing there is a huge reserve of retired teachers who can go back to work. And another, there are many very qualified people with knowledge and ability in the math and sciences but lack a teaching certificate. They would be as good or better than many presently working in the field.

            Longer term, government welfare programs are encouraging the wrong people to make babies. I won’t write more on that, but a serious change is necessary if we want to have a future.

          • Posted by El gaupo on October 18, 2018 at 11:36 am

            Then explain to me how the vast majority of police (since they retire earlier) usually have no trouble sliding back into the private sector upon retirement. Some stay in the public sector (through connections), I’m not talking about those guys and we are in agreement with issues there, political favors and what have you. Many police officers while they are still working have side business(plumbing, carpentry, electric, real estate, etc). How would they not be able to “cut it” if they lost their police job? In many cases they are successful enough to make what they make keeping your rear end safe. You really are off base thinking that cops would be on the welfare rolls if they lost their jobs. Yes, most cops certainly are not chemists, nuclear physicists ,engineers(although more than a few traffic guys are, not me but….insurance companies love guys like me—what honestly makes u think I’d be on the bread line for long without police work?). One will no doubt pick me up and pay me well for my crash reconstruction background when I retire. Paid for by you!!! That’s what I mean, kiddo. You want to train me and at least get some time outta me down while I’m waiting for my pension date don’t you?? 401k us and the ins companies will scoop smart guys like me even earlier.
            Most cops really know how to deal with people and have no problems starting their own business.
            As far as accomplishing things, it’s all in the definition. A few weeks ago I went on a call where a guy’s wife died in the bathtub and he found her at 6am. Guys was doing cpr on an obviously dead person. He was a basket case. I stayed with the guy for 4 hours while the medical examiner investigated and took his soulmate to the morgue. Suddan death. Kept saying how he thought they would have decades left together. Then it was off to school with him to assist her
            In telling his children with grief counselors at school. With kids of my own, I truly felt for the guy. I’d like to think that I helped the guy somewhat get past the first few hours of that. It’s not a job for the faint of heart and if you have the wrong people hired, it can really be bad for the residents of the town he serves. Is their an equivalent to this in the private sector? Is there an equivalent to dentist for that matter? All relative.
            You don’t get to decide what I make or if I get a pension. Sorry but you don’t.

          • Posted by El gaupo on October 18, 2018 at 12:27 pm

            @stanley,

            No way are retired teachers going to come back and provide a cutting edge education for anybody!! And those stem jobs folks would NEVER trade their salary for a teachers. Where were they all when the teachers were on strike in the utopian red states?? Didn’t here a peep from anyone in that field saying let me teach.
            As far as welfare , we concur. I am and always have been of the opinion that if you don’t work, you don’t eat. That’s why it rubs my rhubarb when folks assume that I’m a lazy crap because I’m a cop. Lol. And candidly, many of us are former military. Let’s chexk back in in 2030 and see if I’m still getting my PFRS pension. Betcha I am.

          • Posted by skip3house on October 18, 2018 at 12:44 pm

            ” .. rubs my rhubarb ..” Think the rain will hurt the rhubarb ? Not if it’s in cans ..”

          • Posted by Stanley on October 18, 2018 at 3:29 pm

            “No way are retired teachers going to come back and provide a cutting edge education…”

            You’re in error on that. In most disciplines, there hasn’t been anything new in 100 years and a damn good share of what is presented as new is highly incorrect. This will be obvious to almost all after we are through with the next five to ten years. I’m not sure if it will be worse than Hurricane Mike but for many it just may be. I doubt that science and technology will need a huge head count.

          • Posted by El gaupo on October 18, 2018 at 4:10 pm

            Wow. Nothing has changed in the last 100 years? Ask any teacher who retired before 2005 to use a smart board. Start with that. Wow. I can’t believe you would even think that!!! Medical improvements, technology. Christ in 100 years, Germany has lost 2 world wars and has had 5 different governments. You gotta get out more. No wonder you think the world is going down the tubes. You still watching your VCR tapes on your CRT tv? You sir are obsolete. I am getting there but at least I realize it. These young bucks run rings around me tech wise at the PD. And believe me, with all the computers and cameras we are more machine than man anymore.

          • Posted by Tough Love on October 18, 2018 at 4:15 pm

            Quoting El Gaupo ………………..

            “. Many police officers while they are still working have side business(plumbing, carpentry, electric, real estate, etc). How would they not be able to “cut it” if they lost their police job”

            and

            “In telling his children with grief counselors at school. With kids of my own, I truly felt for the guy. I’d like to think that I helped the guy somewhat get past the first few hours of that. ”

            ————————

            Re 1-st quote:

            Sure it “works-out” in the other jobs BECUASE they know that their LUDICROUSLY GENEROUS Police pension & healthcare benefits eliminates the need to carve out HUGE sums from the business’s revenue to support a retirement …………… as business owners in the PRIVATE Sector must do. And do you “business owners” grant YOUR employees generous pensions (or ANY pension) and very heavily subsidized (or ANY) retiree healthcare benefits …………. most likely not even a dime. What makes YOU so “special”?

            Re 2-nd quote:

            Good, sounds like you would be well qualified to be a Social Worker. The job typically pay $40K/yr (or less) for full-time positions.

          • Posted by El gaupo on October 18, 2018 at 6:02 pm

            You’re just as stupid as Stanley!!! Anything, anything at all not to give one inch. Maybe that’s why you are so petty and jealous.
            If a guy has no business skills his business will more than likely fail. Some cops side businesses do. Others don’t. Cops are usually very used to working long hours, dealing with difficult situations and making split second decisions. Your comment was that you felt that most public employees couldn’t “cut it” in the private sector. After being rebutted your answer is they can bankroll the business w their pension benifits?? Really? How is this possible if they are still working? And how does this in any way shape or form differ from a private sector worker who runs a side business?? The truth is that the same % of private folks as public sector folks fail at a side (or main) business.
            Point #2– even YOU are not stupid enough to think that being a “social worker” is my main part of my job description. And yes even YOU are not stupid enough to think that $40K by any metric would retain a qualified force.
            Again, you don’t get to decide what I make or what my pension benifits will be. You just don’t.
            And seeing as how I do NOT think you are stupid, it must be jealously. I can’t think of any reason to explain your failure to capitulate on points where you are proven wrong!! Can’t cut it in private sector—-well you can because you get a pension? Makes no sense.
            Then I tell a story and I’m a social worker. Lol.
            Don’t take offense TL or Stanley (who I think is pretty fucking stupid, sorry but anyone who denies climate change and cries about how the house of cards is crashing down 24/7, and thinks nothing new is worth teaching to kids, etc— makes me think you don’t have all your marbles anymore). Honestly, I can feel myself getting dumber every time I post to you guys.
            Don’t be jealous TL. I don’t care what you make, I hope you make a million a year and enjoy it. You will never have a say in my salary or pension. Unless u leave NJ. And then someone will take your place. I feel pretty damn good that S5 was signed. Blue skies for the PFRS. A few more years and time to cash in. You must admit that you are the most miserable human being on this blog. And that is something you should work on. Take a break from this blog like I did. And plan to do again.

          • Posted by Tough Love on October 18, 2018 at 7:28 pm

            Quoting El Gaupo ……………….

            “You’re just as stupid as Stanley!!! Anything, anything at all not to give one inch. ”

            There is no reason to “give an inch”…………. period.

            While your wages are are high (once reach reaching full scale) for what you do (in bedroom communities like the one in which you work) but not excessively unreasonable, your pension ………. 4+ times greater in value upon retirement than a comparably situated (in wages, years of service, and age at retirement) Private Sector worker………. and free (or near free) family retiree healthcare coverage worth perhaps ANOTHERT $400K (coming out of the Taxpayers’ pockets) unnecessarily ……….. are BOTH patently ABSURD and should be VERY VERY VERY materially reduced ASAP.

            ————————-

            At some point …. perhaps in the not too distant future (if the market tanks) BOTH of the above will indeed be MATERIALLY reduced, and justifiably, those at the END of their careers (such as yourself) will be called upon to contribute their fair share (by the way of pension/benefit REDUCTIONS) and not be able to skulk out into the sunset leaving only those behind to pick the full burden.

            You have been VASTLY overcompensated over your whole career …….. because our self-interested, vote-selling, contribution-soliciting Elected Officials betrayed the TAXPAYERS, ALL OF WHOM (NOT just the town’s employees) they were indeed elected to represent.

        • Posted by Stanley on October 19, 2018 at 12:54 pm

          Constable Gaupo Uno: “You’re just as stupid as Stanley!!!”

          I like that one. Failed another IQ test!

          Constable with the high falutin NJ learnin, this is an exchange between Dr Harrison Schmitt and a NYT reporter.

          “NYT: I’d love to know if you see any irony in your views on people who denied man walking on the moon vs. your views on climate change.

          Dr. Schmitt: I see no irony at all. I’m a geologist. I know the Earth is not nearly as fragile as we tend to think it is. It has gone through climate change, it is going through climate change at the present time. The only question is, is there any evidence that human beings are causing that change? Right now, in my profession, there is no evidence.

          I, as a scientist, expect to have people question orthodoxy. And we always used to do that. Now, unfortunately, funding by governments, particularly the U.S. government, is biasing science toward what the government wants to hear. That’s a very dangerous thing that’s happening in science today, and it’s not just in climate. I see it in my own lunar research.

          If NASA’s interested in a particular conclusion, then that’s the way the proposals come in for funding. So it’s a very, very serious issue, and I hope the science writers in this room will start to dig deeply into whether or not science has been corrupted by the source of funds that are now driving what people are doing in research, and what their conclusions are.

          I know that a top scholar such as yourself will want to know more, so go to
          climatedepot.com. Nuther good site that I failed to mention before.

          Dr. Schmitt walked on the moon during the Apollo 17 moon mission.

          Reply

  4. Posted by geo8rge on October 17, 2018 at 10:55 am

    Even though there is an election, the multi employer “loan” is not a big issue. I wonder if it is dead in the water? Does the Sears bankruptcy change the dynamic for the loan program at all?

    Reply

  5. Posted by Tough Love on October 19, 2018 at 10:13 am

    Quoting El Gaupo ……………….

    “After being rebutted your answer is they can bankroll the business w their pension benifits?? ?? Really? How is this possible if they are still working? ”

    I DIDN’T say that. What I did say was;

    “Sure it “works-out” in the other jobs BECUASE they know that their LUDICROUSLY GENEROUS Police pension & healthcare benefits eliminates the need to carve out HUGE sums from the business’s revenue to support a retirement …………… as business owners in the PRIVATE Sector must do. And do you “business owners” grant YOUR employees generous pensions (or ANY pension) and very heavily subsidized (or ANY) retiree healthcare benefits …………. most likely not even a dime. What makes YOU so “special”?”

    —————————————-

    Translation for the simple-minded………. it’s VERY difficult for a SMALL business owner to make a living AND (via THAT company’s income, profit, etc.) carve out the large amount of money need for a reasonably comfortable retirement …… which PRIVATE Sector business owners must do.

    Hence it’s a GREAT DEAL easier when your retirement security is provided by OTHER funds. In YOUR case, your ludicrously excessive taxpayer-funded Police pension and benefits.

    Reply

  6. […] billion is about 10 years worth of payouts to participants in Central States alone without taking into consideration any other multiemployer plans or the cost of borrowing which is […]

    Reply

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