S5 To Get “Reasonable” Changes

The New Jersey State Senate yesterday failed to act on S5, a bill transferring management of the New Jersey Police and Firemen’s Retirement System (PFRS) from the Division of Pensions and Benefits in the Department of the Treasury to the Board of Trustees of the PFRS, for reasons reported by northjersey.com:

The Senate also declined to act on a bill that would establish a new 12-person board to manage the Police and Firemen’s Retirement System, which would have the power to change retirement benefits. Former Gov. Chris Christie blocked a similar bill last year, and some Republican lawmakers maintain that a board consisting largely of union members would be inclined to sweeten retirement benefits even if the state can’t afford it.

The 88,000-member pension fund currently is overseen by the State Investment Council.

Sweeney said the bill to change the fund’s management remains on track for approval with a few “reasonable” changes that he declined to specify.

31 responses to this post.

  1. Posted by kevin on February 27, 2018 at 12:33 pm

    As a PFRS pension recipient I would not want a trustee board with a majority of retired members, I agree they would be inclined to sweeten benefits regardless of the ability to pay longterm.

    Reply

  2. Posted by Tough Love on February 27, 2018 at 4:03 pm

    “Declined to specify” ? Why the secrecy about “reasonable” changes?

    And how about letting the TAXPAYERS …….. who are responsible for all but the piddly 10% to 20% of Total Plan Costs that are actually paid for by the workers (INCLUDING all the investment earnings thereon) …….. weigh in on what THEY think are “reasonable” changes.

    Reply

    • Posted by Tough Love on February 27, 2018 at 4:07 pm

      Grow a SPINE Mr. Sweeney.

      You successfully stomped on the Teacher’s Union. Now it’s time to stand up to Gov. Murphy and effectively represent ALL of NJ’s Taxpayers……… NOT just the Public Sector Unions, who’s goal is ALWAYS to suck as much as possible form the pockets of NJ’s taxpayers.

      Reply

  3. Posted by Retired police on February 27, 2018 at 5:40 pm

    “with a few “reasonable” changes that he declined to specify”

    The New Jersey Police and Firemen’s Retirement System is just that, for the Retired.
    However, we only have One Retiree on the board,how quaint, there must be at least two Retirees one who is “noticeably disabled”, who will speak on our behalf.

    The active members somehow seem reluctant to realize they too will be on the other end of the spectrum suggesting that it can be classified, in terms of its position on a scale between two extreme or opposite points. However, they don’t seem to be able to
    grasp this concept. One day they will, rest assured.

    Someone needs to remember the men who were struck down in their prime and
    never had the chance to full-fill their career. Yes us cripples that exist below poverty
    level income and can’t work to supplement. Try living on less than $23,000. dollars a year with medical insurance premiums deducted and no COLA.

    Reply

    • Posted by Stanley on February 28, 2018 at 10:32 am

      “Try living on less than $23,000. dollars a year with medical insurance premiums deducted and no COLA.”

      That might make a good project for you. Research how to make do on 23 grand per year and put it into a book which you can sell on Amazon. There are many who would consider 23 grand per year a king’s ransom. And to the other cops that read this board, you might think about taking a supplemental disability plan and if you choose not to, realize that you self insuring the risk. We all self insure various risks throughout our life and as a rule it is the better financial choice–but the risk is still there whether we choose to offset it or not.

      Reply

  4. Posted by Tough Love on February 27, 2018 at 8:36 pm

    Quoting……….

    “The New Jersey Police and Firemen’s Retirement System is just that, for the Retired”

    I don’t think the the “actives” share your narrow view.
    ——————————————————————–
    Quoting ………..

    “However, we only have One Retiree on the board, how quaint, there must be at least two Retirees one who is “noticeably disabled”, who will speak on our behalf.”

    Self-interest, given that you are disable (keeping in mind that I support your argument for COLAs …. but ONLY for in-the-line-of-duty accidental disability that would satisfy Social Security’s definition of Total Disability, that being such a high bar that it would likely exclude over 95% of those now receiving Police disability pensions*).

    Self-interest is a dastardly thing. Isn’t Union greed and self interest, and of course our Elected Officials welcoming your Union’s money and your member’s Block Voting that created this pension mess in the first place ?

    * the reason giving YOU the COLA-increases that YOU deserve likely won’t happen, is because the other 95% now on Police Disability retirement (unjustly) would be demanding …… ME TOO !. Again, self-interest.

    Reply

  5. Posted by Stephen Douglas on February 27, 2018 at 9:02 pm

    ” Isn’t Union greed and self interest, and of course our Elected Officials welcoming your Union’s money and your member’s Block Voting that created this pension mess in the first place ?”

    Opinions are not facts. Even in NJ, most cops don’t make $150,000 and don’t retire with $100,000. “This pension mess”, especially in NJ, was mostly caused by really crappy governance and… DON’T PAY THE BILLS, THE DEBT GETS LARGER

    Reply

    • Posted by Tough Love on February 27, 2018 at 10:10 pm

      LOL ……………….. Oh, so we’re supposed to be PLEASED that in NJ the “average” full career Police Officer in NJ perhaps only retires with about 90% of those figures AND ….. in their mid-50s.

      What’s wrong with your head ……… you smoken to much of that funny weed form all those pot-shops in CA ?

      Reply

      • Posted by Stephen Douglas on February 27, 2018 at 11:08 pm

        “about 90% of those figures”

        Another internet assumption?

        Reply

        • Posted by Tough Love on February 28, 2018 at 12:03 am

          See below. I WAS wrong. I UNDERSTATED their final salary & pension

          Reply

          • Yes, you WAS wrong, again. You continually quote some of the highest salaries and pensions in New Jersey.
            I (S *Moderation* Douglas) say…” most cops don’t make $150,000 and don’t retire with $100,000.” Even in NJ.

            You respond with more Bergen County crap.

            According to nj.com, median cop pay in the highest paid borough in Bergen County is $155,508. Wow! How bow dah?

            Meanwhile, median cop pay in the highest paid city in Cumberland County is $83,124. (Greedy bastards?)
            ————————————–
            You say… ” the “average” full career Police Officer in NJ perhaps only retires with about 90% of those figures AND ….. in their mid-50s.”

            I say… “perhaps” my arse. To get to 90% of Bergen County pay, you only need only go two counties down, to Howell Township (median cop pay $135,794)

            The next 18 counties pay way less than 90% of Bergen County.
            ———————————
            The main reason for the pension mess is…

            DON’T PAY THE BILLS, THE DEBT GETS LARGER

            http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2017/05/the_town_with_the_highest-paid_cops_in_each_nj_county.html

          • Posted by Tough Love on February 28, 2018 at 11:07 am

            Did you notice the “see below” part.

            Yes, I was WRONG ……. with the actual final wages and pensions not only HIGHER (not LOWER) than my 90% est., but HIGHER than 100% of the 2 amounts that you stated in your comment …………. over $150K final wages, and over $100K pension.

            You like seeing only what you want to see to support your desired outcome.

            And you did it again above, stating median salaries …. that INCLUDE those in the grade-in period …….. which you knew I was excluding in my earlier comments.

          • Posted by Stephen Douglas on February 28, 2018 at 11:36 am

            In

            Bergen

            County

    • Posted by Tough Love on February 28, 2018 at 12:01 am

      Out of curiosity, I used the Asbury Park Press DataUniverse to see if I could determine the salaries and pensions of RECENT NJ Police Retirees. It’s a HUGE source of info (including Police Gov’t employee contracts) and can be found here:

      http://php.app.com/agent/

      Using filters on the Right side of the page, I chose the Bergen County Police Dep’t as representative of the entire County’s Police Officers.

      The latest year included was retirees of 2016. There were 19 retiree. Excluding 2 with disability retirements leaves 17. Dropping it all into a spreadsheet, the average final wages of the 17 was $150,766.88. The average pension is $100,253.94, and the average length of service is 26.3 years.

      FYI ……… I had to go through each of the 17 individual listings to pick off the pension and the # of months of service (as well as identifying those who retired on disability).

      Details on each of the 19 retirees can be found here:

      http://php.app.com/agent/governmentretirees/search/page:2?lastn=&firstn=&location=BERGEN+COUNTY&FundName=PFRS+-+Police+and+Firemen%27s+Retirement+System&retireyr=2016

      —————————————————-

      Given that this is for year 2016 retirees, and we are now in 2018, it looks like I UNDERSTATED the final salaries and pensions ……. at least with respect to Bergen County Police Officers.

      Per my recent demonstration, these pensions are ROUTINELY almost 3.5 TIMES greater in value upon retirement than the pensions typically granted Private Sector workers with the SAME wages, the SAME years of service, and the SAME age at retirement.

      Hopefully, COLAs won’t be reinstated any time soon.

      Reply

      • Posted by Tough Love on February 28, 2018 at 12:28 am

        Figured I’d add the Year Of Birth to my spreadsheet, so I could calculate the age upon retirement. Turns out that the average age at retirement for the 17 Bergen County Police retirees of 2016 was 51.47 years. It ranged from 43 to 61 with most in the late 40s or early 50s.

        That being the case ………. they will be collecting their pensions for even MORE years than I expected, having assumed a retirement age of 55 in my demonstration that resulted in the 3.47 times greater-in-value Police pensions.

        Using the ACTUAL 51.47 average retirement age for this group, my 3.47 times would increase to about 4 times.

        Stephen Douglas ………… nice having ACTUAL numbers backing up what I say.

        Reply

        • Moderation. ..

          ” Opinions are not facts. Even in NJ, most cops don’t make $150,000 and don’t retire with $100,000.”

          Mr. Love. ..

          ” Oh, so we’re supposed to be PLEASED that in NJ the “average” full career Police Officer in NJ perhaps only retires with about 90% of those figures AND ….. in their mid-50s.”

          The question seemed clear… Where do you get the notion that the “average” full career Police Officer in NJ perhaps retires with about 90% of those figures?

          Why do you keep going back to Bergen County?
          ——————————————————–
          Camden, 9 PFRS retirees 2016…

          Average final salary………$105,494
          Average pension……………$70,388
          Average service………………27.4 years
          Average retirement age…52

          Not even close to 90%. Bergen County has a very high cost of living and a very high average income. I doubt they care whether you are PLEASED or not.

          Reply

          • Posted by Tough Love on March 1, 2018 at 5:43 pm

            FACT:

            Using ACTUAL data (per my comment above), the 2016 year (non-disability) retirees of the Bergen County NJ Police dept had average final wages OVER $150K and an annual pension of OVER $100K starting at an average age of 51.47.

            Camden has one of the highest crime rates not just in NJ, but in the entire NATION and is so poor that it has insufficient funds to appropriately pay it’s workers, hardly representative of the 95+% mostly bedroom communities in NJ with VERY low crime rates ……….. and not surprising at all to me that Mr. Douglas would pick suck an outlier.

            The northern half of NJ (being essentially a suburb of NYC) has a higher cost of living (and pays more) than the southern half. Bergen county is reasonably representative of the northern half of NJ. Morris, Somerset, Essex, Middlesex, Hunterdon, etc. all in the northern half of NJ, are no less expensive.

            As usual …. retired CA Public Sector light-bulb-changer Stephen Douglas is putting his “spin” on the facts.

          • ” ……….. and not surprising at all to me that Mr. Douglas would pick suck an outlier.”

            LOL. At first I went to the lowest paid (median salary $48,157) because Mr. Love always reverts to one of the highest. But, who ever heard of New Hanover Township?

            No, Mr. Love, Bergen Co. is not representative of the “average” pay or pension in New Jersey. It is an outlier. Or, as some might say, “suck an outlier”.

            The “average” cop in New Jersey don’t make final wages of $150,766.88, and don’t got no $100,253.94 pension. And not “90%” of that, either, unless you can come up with real statistics.
            ————————————————
            Fun Facts, did you know?

            The Average Rated Life (ARL) is how long it takes for half the light bulbs in a test batch to fail. It’s also been called a half-life. For example if 100 bulbs are tested and have an ARL of 1000 hours, 50 of the bulbs had died when the test time reached 1000 hours. Some bulbs may have failed within 50 hours, some within 450 hours, some within 700 hours, etc. but half were dead within 1000 hours.

            So, if you replace an incandescent bulb with an LED (40,000-50,000 hours Average Rated Life), the LED may last less than a day, or it may last longer than Moderation’s pension. And it will be as cold as Mr. Love’s heart.

            “suck an outlier”… you still crack me up.

          • Posted by Tough Love on March 1, 2018 at 7:34 pm

            Quoting ………..

            “LOL. At first I went to the lowest paid (median salary $48,157) because Mr. Love always reverts to one of the highest. ”

            No what you did …… assuredly to mislead …….. is AGAIN used “average” salaries that include Officers in the ramp-up-years to full wages, which I made very clear that I was NOT including.

            Noting that your job responsibilities as a CA Public Sector worker included changing light bulbs, where you one of the best-and “brightest” ……. lol

          • Posted by Tough Love on March 1, 2018 at 8:04 pm

            Here is a VERY good example of just how intentionally misleading Stephen Douglas is ……………..

            With data as of 12/31/2016, New Hanover Township has 3 police officers. One was hired in 2005 with wages of $65K, one hired in Jan 2015 (24 months of service) with a $36K salary, and one hired in May 2016 (8 months of service) with $13.6K in salary.

            So he picked ……. without any mention of how inappropriate a choice it is ……. a town with such out-of-the-norm Police Officer demographics.

          • Moderation used the exact same source you cited…

            http://php.app.com/agent/
            —————————
            In Camden, 11 officers retired in 2016. 2 were disability retirements. I averaged the remaining 9. Their final pay and pensions were nowhere near Bergen County.

            And Bergen County is nowhere near typical of New Jersey. (Neither is Camden.) I specifically decided *not* to use New Hanover Township for the final pay and pension comparison because it was the lowest median salary.

            Reading comprehension required. (And manners.)

          • Posted by Tough Love on March 2, 2018 at 2:20 am

            Stephen,

            And you think that Camden NJ isn’t an outlier, being not just one of the poorest and most crime-ridden communities in NJ, but in the entire nation.

            Camdem is no less an outlier than New Hanover Township. While it’s (thankfully) been dropping in the past few years, in 2012 Camden NJ had the highest violent crime rate of any city in America.

          • Posted by Stephen Douglas on March 2, 2018 at 2:58 pm

            “ACTUAL numbers”

            I know it’s trite, but…

            If you want a true picture of police pay and pensions in New Jersey, you will have to include *all* police, not just a few random cities. Calculate the mean and median, give separate data for patrol officers and managers, show all your data and assumptions, etc. And still “experts” will disagree.

      • Posted by Retired police on February 28, 2018 at 3:20 am

        “Hopefully, COLAs won’t be reinstated any time soon”. By Tough love.

        Your stance on COLs is unwavering and will remain so in my opinion.
        Those who retire with a $100,000 dollars pension don’t really need one, and
        have the option to work if they care to so.

        However, commonsense has to prevail in the minds of those who make the rules
        in that the truly disabled making poverty level income must be viewed with
        a different set of eyes. This board must reinstate COLA for people like myself.
        If I sound greedy, than so be it.

        If they think it will piss off the rest of the retirees making $1000,000 a year or more
        because they decide to throw a bone to the bottom feeders than they don’t belong on the board. But I doubt the members would be upset if this was to happen.
        Most would agree, I truly believe this. Any disabled member unable to supplament
        their income due to severe injury sustained on the job earning less than $25,000
        dollars should receive a raise plus COLA to at least above poverty level.

        This should have been implemented before COLA was stopped. One other point
        dose anyone think I or others like me wouldn’t rater continued working or at least be able to work after their injury ? Not one soul here knows what it’s like not to
        be in control of your future and have to depend on the kindness of others
        because their families usually leave them. Damaged goods, no use to them anymore. That’s no joke it’s plain sad and disgusting, That’s all I have to say
        and frankly I don’t give a shit any longer

        Reply

        • Posted by Tough Love on February 28, 2018 at 11:13 am

          Quoting ………….. “Your stance on COLAs is unwavering and will remain so in my opinion.”

          Given the 3.47 times greater-in-generosity Police (that Private sector) pensions in NJ (and that’s WITHOUT COLAs …. ever), anyone with even a remote sense of fairness to Taxpayers would agree with me.

          And indeed commonsense should prevail, by materially reducing by no lees than 50% the value of future service pension accruals of all current Police (and all other NJ Public Sector workers). Taxpayers have grown weary of being the “sucker” in the equation.

          Reply

  6. Posted by Stephen Douglas on February 27, 2018 at 9:51 pm

    I think what you’re referring to is “bloc voting”, look it up. And it’s probably not nearly as prevalent in public workers as you imagine. Or obsess.

    Reply

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