S5 Pushback

Next Monday there will be a voting session of the New Jersey Senate and though nothing is on the agenda yet it seems inevitable that transferring management of the New Jersey Police and Firemen’s Retirement System (PFRS) from the Division of Pensions and Benefits in the Department of the Treasury to the Board of Trustees of the PFRS will be voted on. Earlier this month S5 got a thumbs up from a Senate Committee (11 -1) and opponents are now making their case.



A3414 Transfers management of PFRS to Board of Trustees of PFRS; provides safeguards against poor performance of investments.
State and Local Government

Identical Bill Number: S1964

Thomson, Edward H.   as Primary Sponsor

2/15/2018 Introduced, Referred to Assembly State and Local Government Committee

Introduced – – 53 pages PDF Format    HTML Format

62 responses to this post.

  1. Posted by Tough Love on February 20, 2018 at 7:55 pm

    Screw the ……….. “safeguards against poor performance of investments”. That’s not the big problem with the Bill.

    What we SHOULD be VERY VERY concerned about about is giving Local Police control over their pensions (INCLUDING re-instating COLAs, increasing formula benefits, enriching “provisions”, and lowering employee contributions). Combine that with the expiration of the 2% Police Salary arbitration cap and I envision a return to years when Property tax increased by 6% to 8% annually.

    The degree to which NJ’s self-interested Elected Officials are willing to betray NJ’s Taxpayers is astonishing


    • Posted by Anonymous on February 20, 2018 at 8:40 pm

      As a 23 yr veteran who is looking to retire in 2 to 7 yrs I am excited about this bill. I would love to have my COLA reinstated and would love to have 3-4% raises again. Well deserved. That will give me a six figure pension, six figure sick pay, and thanks to a newly signed contract free medical insurance for life. The town was all to willing to do this I an effort to make us retire. We gave up medical after retirement for new hires but oh well, I guess you can’t have it all. Well, I guess I did pretty good. My youngest will be in her last year of college when I hit 30 years and hen the for sale sign comes out. I am looking South but candidly, I worry about climate change and would rather move north a bit. Our town specifically said they were afraid of arbitration again and gave us 2% for two years and 2.5% for two more years. Then it may be just one more contract for me. Then off to work for an insurance company like you. Investigating car crashes. Big money there too. Spent last 20 years of my career carving out a niche for myself. Worked tons of fatal crashes. Lookin forward to begin collecting pension and working in private sector. I should have no problem with the transition. Let me thank you for your contributions to this. I am also thankful that you comment on here instead of politicking for change. I’m not big on politics either TL. See we are pretty similar. If you became a cop, you would fight to keep what you have. Bless your heart.


      • Posted by Tough Love on February 20, 2018 at 9:01 pm

        A few thoughts …………

        (1) Quoting …”Well Deserved”

        It’s good to have a high opinion of yourself, but what counts more is what others think of you. When you say “well deserved”, does that mean that your Total Compensation package (easily in excess of $200K annually when the value of your pension & benefits is correctly valued) is necessary, fair to Taxpayers, orappropriate? If it was “necessary”, would there be 500 applicants for each open position? Do Private Sector workers with the SAME experience, education, skills and knowledge (even if in a different filed) typically get such compensation?

        (2) Quoting ………

        “We gave up medical after retirement for new hires but oh well, I guess you can’t have it all. ”

        No, “we” (meaning currently employed Officers) didn’t give up anything. You simply threw new Officers under the bus to keep MORE for yourselves. You should be proud.

        (3) I wish you well in your retirement …. good health and happiness, but please forgive me if (as I expect WILL happen one day) if I don’t shed a if tear your pension is very materially reduced ………… perhaps to the MUCH smaller level that it assuredly WOULD HAVE been in the absence of the collusion between your Unions and our Elected Officials (campaign money for favorable votes on Police pay, pensions, and benefits)..


      • Posted by Tough Love on February 20, 2018 at 9:08 pm

        Oh I forgot one thing ………..

        When you start that new job in the Private Sector, you’ll be helping support MY Social Security benefits when I get there. That 6.2% SS deduction from your check and another 6.2% from your employer (that he surely would have been willing to pay to you if if he didn’t have to turn it over the the Gov’t) likely won’t buy you a dime of SS benefits, thanks to Social Security’s Windfall Benefits Provision.


        • Posted by Retired police on February 20, 2018 at 9:38 pm

          Excellent reply from (Tough Love) ” Windfall Benefits Provision.” what a fantastic benefit it is to those who receive it.
          I receive a whole $7.00 a month from S.S , wow what a windfall for me.
          I haven’t had a C.O.L.A. in approx. 5 years, however, my bills grow larger
          each month and I’m down to bare minimums just to survive. I’m speaking of barely having enough to eat. If C.O,L.A. is not reinstated for those earning less than
          $25,000. dollars a year than I guess we’ll have to learn what cat food tastes like.


          • Posted by Tough Love on February 20, 2018 at 10:42 pm

            Retired police,

            It’s named (by the Social Security Administration) “the Windfall Elimination Provision” for good reason ….. to “eliminate” an otherwise unjustifiable “windfall”. Google it. It’s not hard to understand, and those who are subject to BUT complain about it are simply GREEDY and want MORE than what is justifiable.

            Wow, you …….. “haven’t had a C.O.L.A. in approx. 5 years”. Did you know that retirees under Corporate-sponsored Private Sector plans almost never (ever) GET a COLA ? What makes YOU so “special” that you should get so much more than the Taxpayers (85% of whom work in the Private Sector) whose pension contributions (and the investment earning thereon) are now responsible for 80% to 90% of the Total Cost of MUCH MUCH greater pension?

            If you are ……. “down to bare minimums just to survive”………. then your problem is likely too high expenses, not too little income.


          • Posted by Retired police on February 20, 2018 at 10:44 pm

            My mistake regarding excellent reply by (tough love) is was meant for
            ( Anonymous) NOT tough love.
            His post (tough love) was the same mundane type that is seen all to often,
            Such a bemused parrot with the same mindset.


          • Posted by Tough Love on February 20, 2018 at 10:48 pm

            Hi again Retired Police…………..

            Are my comments really “mundane” or simply annoying you ……. because they tell it like it really is ?


      • Posted by Retired police on February 20, 2018 at 11:15 pm

        Tough Love:
        You ask what makes me special? Nothing makes me special. However, the facts are, I was struck down in the prime of my career by a criminal altercation that left me partially paralyzed while performing my duty.
        As a result I’m unable to work and I don’t receive any pay increase from S.S .
        I worked odd jobs while in college and accumulated 40 credits, bare minimum to receive S.S. As a Police officer, we didn’t contribute S.S F.Y.I.
        Furthermore, Mr. I don’t enjoy my condition, however, I live with it and the low
        annual income it provides. COLA for me is important, as stated I can’t work
        another job to supplement. I don’t want anyone’s pity, only what I feel
        I’m entitled to. Before you open your mouth and make a complete ass of yourself
        try living on less than $23,000.00 a year. Now please leave me alone.


        • Posted by Tough Love on February 20, 2018 at 11:43 pm

          You bring up an interesting point that many haven’t considered re Officer’s on Disability pensions. For the VERY SMALL portion of all Disabled Officers (apparently yourself included) that are legitimately “disabled” form on-the-job injuries and would satisfy Social Security’s definition of “Disability” (not the rampant BS disabilities) they SHOULD get annual COLA-increases.


          • Posted by Tough Love on February 20, 2018 at 11:48 pm

            As an example of what I referred to as BS Disabilities, there is a former NJ transit Police Office on permanent Disability because he stapled his “trigger finger” while practicing shooting.

            It hard to make this stuff up !



          • Posted by Retired police on February 20, 2018 at 11:51 pm

            Tough love
            Thank you for that, it is truly appreciated.


          • Posted by Anonymous on February 21, 2018 at 7:32 am

            Of course he should get COLA. I hopefully will be blessed and be able to finish my career in a couple years unscathed. And I’m thankful for what I will get. This man represents what is sooooooo wrong with our disability pension formula. Guys like him should be well taken care off. Most people on this blog and on society would hopefully agree with that. The ones who don’t are just assholes. The rest who game the system are disgraceful. I would say shut up and get back to work to those folks, but instead many have a political hook on the pension board or are something similiar and their pensions are totally unjustified. I would be more than happy to work after retirement as a investigator for the new pension trustee board and nail these frauds.
            This guy is why COLA is needed by many members. Social security is such a minimal of any part of police retirement. TL, I’m sure a hard liner like you would agree that upon age 65 at least folks should get a cola on the first $35000 or $40000 of their pension.


          • Posted by Tough Love on February 21, 2018 at 12:47 pm

            Quoting ……………

            ” TL, I’m sure a hard liner like you would agree that upon age 65 at least folks should get a cola on the first $35000 or $40000 of their pension.”

            IF Police pension “formulas” and “provisions” were EQUAL (or even reasonably close) in generosity, I would agree that pensions should annually be COLA-increased up to the SS maximum (now about $32K annually), but NJ’s Police pensions are FAR from EQUAL or reasonably close in generosity.

            A typical NJ Police Officer retires after 25 years with an annual pension of 65% of final wages starting at about age 55 (with NO reduction in that formula benefit). Getting 65% of pay after 25 years gives a per-year-of-service “formula-factor” of 0.65/25 = 0.026 or 2.6%.

            Private Sector pension Plans (for the few Private Sector workers lucky enough to still be accruing benefits in such Plans) typically have a per-year-of-service “formula-factor” of about 1.5%, and the Plan has an NRA=Normal Retirement AGE (the youngest age at which unreduced pensions can commence) of 65. And if you elect to retire at a younger age, your pension is permanently reduced by about 5% PER-YEAR-OF-AGE younger than that NRA (noting that Social Security uses an even higher reduction of about 6% in it’s early retirement calculations).

            Putting aside (for the moment) your question of adding COLAs, let’s compare the “generosity” of the above Public vs Private formulas/provisions assuming $150,000 in final wages (certainly NOT unusual for a 2017 NJ Police retiree given that the most retire with a rank above Patrolman), 25 years of service, and retirement at age 55…….

            The NJ Policeman would get an annual pension of:

            $150,000 x 25 x 0.026 = $97,500

            The Private Sector worker (with the SAME wages, the SAME years of service, and the SAME age at retirement) would get an annual pension of:

            ($150,000 x 25 x 0.015)x [1 – (0.05 x (65-55))] = $28,125

            Comparing the two, $97,500/$28,125 = 3.47

            The NJ Police Officer’s pension is 3.47 times greater (more “generous”).

            Instead of NJ’s Police retirees asking for a return of their COLAs, NJ’s Taxpayers should be demanding a material reduction in the “generosity of the basic Police pension, the current one being ludicrously excessive. At a MINIMUM, the changes that were put in place in 2011 for NEW workers should apply to the FUTURE service of all CURRENT workers.


          • Posted by Stephen Douglas on February 21, 2018 at 10:11 pm

            “assuming $150,000 in final wages (certainly NOT unusual for a 2017 NJ Police retiree given that the most retire with a rank above Patrolman),”

            NOT usual, either, certainly.

            3.47 times.h.Nyuck, nyuck, nyuck


          • Posted by Tough Love on February 22, 2018 at 12:31 pm

            $150,000 in final wages for a 2017 full-career Police retiree is certainly NOT unusual in NJ.


          • Posted by Tough Love on February 22, 2018 at 4:03 pm

            Stephen, I forgot to mention that the 3.47 times (more “generous” and hence “costly”) NJ Police pensions is NOT a function of my assumed pensionable wages used in the above calculation ….. because the SAME wage figure was used in BOTH the Police and Private Sector worker’s pension calculation.

            Substitute ANY amount you chose and the 3.47 times relationship will be unchanged. You see, It’s the MUCH MUCH richer FORMULA and MUCH more generous PROVISIONS that are the source of the MULTIPLES greater Police pension, not the specific wage level.


            lol …………..Nyuck, nyuck, nyuck …. to your inability (or refusal to do so because the result doesn’t support your desired outcome) to comprehend junior high school math.


      • Posted by Stanley on February 21, 2018 at 8:05 am

        “As a 23 yr veteran who is looking to retire in 2 to 7 yrs …”
        It’s good that you are doing well and hopefully you’ll put a little money aside for a rainy day. You’ll retire in 2 to 7 years and it sounds like you think that this venture off the beaten path will last that long and longer. You boys in blue can tell the public how much they owe and they will have no choice but to hand over the loot. Right? If unsustainable trends continued indefinitely, we would all be carrying ten foot broadswords.


      • Posted by Stanley on February 21, 2018 at 10:19 am

        “As a 23 yr veteran who is looking to retire in 2 to 7 yrs I am excited about this bill. I would love to have my COLA reinstated and would love to have 3-4% raises again. Well deserved. ”
        Really great! A cop gloating about looting his community. Ain’t a damn thing the suckers can do about it, either! In my neighborhood, policemen and patrolmen buy very large, expensive houses. Maybe $5, $6 hundred thousand houses. 4K+ sq ft, 4+ garages. That’s OK. But after reading a few of the posts, I’m wondering if they might have bought smaller houses and put some of those funds to work in self bought disability plans, you know, just in case problems come up.

        Most of us private sector retirees don’t receive COLA escalators on our pensions. We have no choice but to discern ways to make ends meet Due to hyper inflated financial markets there is the appearance of great wealth in this country. Unfortunately, we aren’t rich–we are broke and there is obviously a great need on the part of most many, to work on their budgeting and spending skills. Whether or not a person deserves a bailout, there isn’t one on the way.


        • Posted by Anonymous on February 21, 2018 at 1:00 pm

          Sorry bro. Any respectable middle class career should be able to mortgage a $400000 to $500000 home. In Bergen county that is far from a 4000 square foot home.
          And while your pension may not have a cola, your SS does. I won’t get SS or it will be drastically cut. Soooo, yes, I am excited about a COLA possibly returning. What I don’t like is guys retiring at 50. That is what strains the system. I favor no pension until age 57 (I don’t want 60 year olds arresting jacked up thugs, I don’t think that benefits anyone except the thug). You can retire at 25 years if u want but no pension till 57. I would gladly make that exchange for a reinstatement if COLA. As would you I’m sure. Be real my man, if you were able to get a little more money/benefit in your job after a lot was taken away you would. I’m sure you have a family to raise.


          • Posted by Tough Love on February 21, 2018 at 1:28 pm

            Read my above comment … time-stamped February 21, 2018 at 12:47 pm.

            By any and every reasonable metric, Police pensions are ludicrous excessive, unnecessary to attract and retain a qualified workforce, unfair to Taxpayers (whose pensions contributions and the investment earnings thereon, are now responsible for 80% to 90% of the Total Cost of these excessive pensions), and are clearly unaffordable. COLAs are just the icing you want to add to what already amounts to a 5-star face-stuffing.


          • Posted by Stephen Douglas on February 21, 2018 at 11:21 pm

            “Ludicrously excessive” is excessively ludicrous.

            OK if you’re just ranting on a blog (or a few dozen blogs), but if you really want to change policy for hundreds of thousands of retirees, you will need something much better than an “opinion” and an outdated, biased study.


          • Posted by Tough Love on February 22, 2018 at 12:29 pm

            Stephen, Quoting form Calmatters re California Firefighter pensions……

            ” … a sheriff’s deputy or firefighter who retired last year with more than 30 years of service is getting $11,358 a month, or $136,296 a year for life.”

            And that’s COLA-increased every year.

            On a present value basis ….. i.e. the cost to buy that income stream …. is on the underside of $2.5 Million.

            Not ludicrous ?

            Readers, what’s your opinion ?


          • It’s all relative. From a recent article by Mary Pat Campbell listing the authors of an article…

            X’s 2016 pension was $126K

            Y’s was $110K,

            Z has pension of $104K for 32 years of service

            “I’m not quoting these to get snippy about the $100K club – after all, I make more money than that and I don’t think that these are necessarily excessive amounts.”


          • Posted by Tough Love on February 22, 2018 at 9:12 pm

            Depends upon the comparison used to evaluate “excessive”.

            Because Taxpayers pay for ALL but the 10% to 20% of total Public Sector pension Plan costs paid for by the workers own contributions (including all the earnings thereon), I believe that the MOST APPROPRIATE standard by which “excessive” should be measured is the retirement security granted PRIVATE Sector Taxpayers.

            Under that Standard, ALL Public Sector Final Average Salary DB Pension Plans are grossly excessive, and the $136K COLA-increased Fireman’s pension noted above, is beyond LUDICROUS.


  2. Posted by Tough Love on February 20, 2018 at 9:38 pm

    With NJ Assemblyman Edward H. Thomson being a practicing pension actuary, it should be harder for the (in-the-Union’s-pocket) Democrats to simply ignore what he says ….. a GOOD thing.

    In that video he noted that Private Sector Plans (conservatively valued under ERISA, PPA, etc.) start getting hit with benefit restrictions when their funding ratio drops below 80%, and with MUCH more sever restrictions when it drops below 60%. He also noted that the Bill under consideration SHOULD (but does NOT) restrict any Police Pension Plan improvements if the Plan’s funding ratio were to drop below 80% AFTER such improvements.

    What is VERY VERY material, but NOT mentioned by Mr. Thomson is that the Police Plan is valued under MUCH more LIBERAL assumptions & methodology than Private Sector Plans, and NJ’s Police Plan (using it’s own very liberal assumptions & methodology) would have to reach a funding ratio of about 110% to be EQUALLY well-funded as is a Private Sector Plan with an 80% funding ratio (using the far more CONSERVATIVE assumptions & methodology used in Private Sector Plan valuations).


    • Posted by Anonymous on February 21, 2018 at 7:44 am

      A good start would be reining in disability frauds!!!!!!! Disgraceful. Get back to work. It is a slap in the face to those truly disabled as a result of their employment. Next no pension until 55. 57 for new hires. Reinstate cola, but only after 5 years of retirement. Many older cops need it like poster above need it. As will young officers who are in TIEr 3 and get reduced benefits and will at the end of their careers, if they finish them and don’t leave for greener pastures, will definitely need cola after 25 years of raises that in most cases will NOT keep up with cost of living, and these guys in many cases will have no medical after retirement. Most guys that do finish will still not have social security and most definitely will need to work a side job during their career. WEP will not hit as hard if you have 30 years of social security input. 10% reduction at that point.


      • Posted by Anonymous on February 21, 2018 at 7:55 am

        That will be the new paradigm. The police job will turn into the side gig. The main jobbwill be their “side” business. Electrician, carpenter, etc. that will be their focus. And that will be fine. It was like that in the 60s and 70s. Although the job is WAY more complex now. Between domestic violence laws, video cameras, records management systems, cultural diversity, school shooting drills, there are way more regulations than when I first started.


        • Posted by Anonymous on February 21, 2018 at 7:57 am

          I for one will be happy to work alongside TL in insurance. In fact, I’d take her to lunch. My treat. And we can talk about all the ills of The day. Lol. I may disagree with her but she does appear to have a brain and even a heart. Haha.


          • Posted by Tough Love on February 21, 2018 at 12:57 pm

            What’s with the “insurance” thing ? I know a great deal about a variety of Life Insurance and Annuity products from my work in the financial services sector, but I don’t work for an Insurance company.


          • Posted by Stephen Douglas on February 21, 2018 at 10:43 pm

            “my work in the financial services sector” with free WiFi access.


          • Posted by Tough Love on February 21, 2018 at 11:33 pm


            Not Wi-Fi ………… it’s hard-wired (SUPER-fast).


  3. As I have said so many times, I do not begrudge the city and urban cops anything and yes I do believe that they deserve most of what they contracted for as far as pensions and medical. As for the bedroom community and shore town cops………they want the same things as the city cops without anywhere near the level of danger, stress and high probability of being injured or killed while on duty.

    Disgusting……….the bedroom cops should be ashamed of themselves


    • Posted by Tough Love on February 21, 2018 at 1:09 pm

      lol ……….. the “bedroom community” Police demand even MORE because the Cost Of Living in such communities is higher.


    • Posted by Anonymous on February 21, 2018 at 1:10 pm

      Why on earth would I be ashamed of myself? The disparity in pay is not nearly what you think it is. I transferred from an urban shithole after 2 years to a bedroom community. As did hundreds if not thousands of officers. Where would you rather work bro? Be real, once you have kids you’d pick the higher paying burbs any day of the week and twice on Sunday. I didn’t create these pay scales so truly why the fuck would I be in the least bit ashamed of myself? Would you be? No. I do honestly do the best job I can like most of my fellow officers. I never mean any ill will to anyone and have established wonderful relationships with most of the residents over the years. If you want to talk about merging smaller departments I am open to that. But to think a cop living in a split level in the burbs is excessive, I firmly disagree with ya.


      • Posted by Anonymous on February 21, 2018 at 1:25 pm

        And TL, my apologies. I thought I read on here somewhere that you worked for an insurance company. Lol. Anyway, I truly believe that your purpose on here, as mine is, is to sway folks like me over to your side of the ledger even if it is just a little bit. Obviously my livelihood depends on pension/bennies so naturally, my position on these thing will be in most cases different than yours. And that is Ok. My position should be to at least have you understand where I am coming from and maybe change your mind about a small thing here or there. The folks that just say “screw the cops, they should work for half their pay, or find another job” etc, I will never change their thought process and is foolish to continue to try to do so. What I’m saying is that you even though you truly disagree with me the vast majority of the time, I think you have more respect for me than a fool who says “fuck the taxpayer” etc. I have friends who bust my balls playfully and truly think I make to much, but nevertheless like me as a person and wish me well. I think you would fall in that category as opposed to someone who truly does not like me for any other reason except what my pension/ salary is etc.


        • Posted by Tough Love on February 21, 2018 at 2:55 pm

          That’s likely true, but on a Total Compensation basis (wages + pensions + benefits both while active and retired), NJ Police are vastly over-compensated vs Private Sector workers in jobs with similar risks and who have reasonably similar experience, education, skills, and knowledge (even if in a different field).

          I respect all honest/productive workers (whether Public or Private), but the unnecessary over-compensation of Public Sector workers is just WRONG on so many levels.


          • Posted by Stephen Douglas on February 21, 2018 at 9:46 pm

            Similar risks. And responsibilities.

            Identical twin brothers graduating from HS; one could get a job immediately as a roofer, the other might volunteer for two years military service, then join the police force. We mostly know the roofer has a statistically more hazardous job, but who really thinks he should earn as much as his brother? They both got on-the-job training, but it’s not the same thing. Where do you find an occupation comparable to a policeman?


          • Posted by Tough Love on February 21, 2018 at 11:30 pm


            Per several articles (easily found via Google search) the average IQ of a Policeman is 104 (just slightly above the national average of 100).

            If you took the TYPICAL new hire at Apple, Google, Microsoft, Intel, Facebook, etc., I’d bet it’s over 130. And I’d bet dollars to donuts that the average IQ of Private Sector workers earning the SAME “wages” as a NJ Police Office is FAR higher ……… and even FAR higher than that if measured on a “Total Compensation” basis.

            Your not dealing with geniuses* here ………. and don’t cut he roofer short. If he’s running his own business he’s like far smarter than the average Police Officer.
            * Unless “genius” is defined as landing one of the most excessively over-compensated jobs in the country


          • ” Your not dealing with geniuses* ”

            Mr. Obvious.


          • Posted by Tough Love on February 22, 2018 at 12:34 am


            I wonder what is the average IQ of a light-bulb-changer ?


          • Posted by Anonymous on February 22, 2018 at 8:19 am

            Wow TL. Sorry. Low blow. Of course I am not a genius. However, I, like most of my colleagues have a college degree. And have some masters credits. Yes I didn’t finish. I thought you were a fair commentator here. I was wrong. You really have no idea how much technology is used in law enforcement. Not to mention people skills, which you appear to be low on. Who the hell are you to insult me personally like that? You don’t even know me!!!! I happened to do my job well, and again, try going on a ride along program. See what the job entails completely before making statement about IQ and geniuses. Beneath you. How about just sticking to “I think they are overcompensated” and leave it at that. Truth is, I suspect you are NOT NEARLY as successful as you say you are. I’m a police officer with 23 years on. You know pretty much what I make. We don’t know your story. It appears that all you do is sit on your ass all day complaing about pensions. You’ve been on these posts for years!!!!! I can only imagine what your home life is like. Lol. Here’s some advice. Get out and smell the flowers. You only go through once. Live, laugh, love. After all these years, nothing has changed because of your comments. Nothing. Waste of time. If I were friends with you in real life, I suspect all you would do is tell me how I am overcompensated all the time. No thanks. I’ll pass.


          • Posted by Tough Love on February 22, 2018 at 12:04 pm


            Oh please, don’t get so dramatic. I didn’t “insult you personally”, I simply stated a fact. Are “facts” a problem if they’re not complimentary ?

            Where I was looking to get to was address the BS that wages/pensions/benefits must be kept high to attract the “best and brightest”. Well, if this the AVERAGE of what we get for the HUGE amount we now pay…….. we’re WAY overpaying.

            Yes, I have been posting “for years”, because (by training and experience) I saw this pension mess coming 15 years ago. I remember hearing the announcements of the bills that raised NJ Police pensions from 60% of final pay to 65% at 25 years, and non-Safety pensions in NJ by 9.09% (from 1/60 to 1/55 per year of service). When compared to Private Sector pensions they were ALREADY MULTIPLES more generous (and hence MULTIPLES more costly). I was astonished that they were being increased, especially AFTER the Tech Bubble and ALREADY blown and tech-stock values were crashing. Our Elected Officials KNEW THIS ……. but ignored it catering to their Union overseers.

            You don’t sound like a dope, so you should know that all the (bought-off) Elected Officials and all the conflicted judges can’t change the underlying math. The MATH always governs in the endgame ……. and the Plan participants (as well as Taxpayers) aren’t going to liken that endgame.

            Greed HAS consequences.


  4. Posted by geo8rge on February 21, 2018 at 12:05 pm

    Where did Christie get money for his pension contributions? Deferred maintenance.

    Christie administration cut transit aid by 90 percent.

    New Jersey Transit’s Hidden Danger: Bad Brakes, Bare Wires, Rotten Parts


    • Posted by Tough Love on February 21, 2018 at 1:12 pm

      We’re ALL going to turn into Detroit unless these ludicrously excessive Public Sector DB pensions are frozen or at at minimum, accruals reduced by at least 50% in value for the FUTURE service of all CURRENT workers.


  5. I always wonder exactly what will be the tipping point that finally turns it all upside down?


    • Posted by Tough Love on February 21, 2018 at 3:00 pm

      Nothing surprises me any more…………

      While another great recession in the equity markets would be the endgame for MANY Public Sector pensions (especially NJ), I doubt that even that would be the impetus for immediate change. I’m sure the Unions would say……… when the Plan assets run out, you’re STILL going to continue paying allthat was “promised”on a pay-as-you-go-basis.

      That would likely require a Tax INCREASE of $10 to $15 Billion in NJ.


  6. Posted by Stephen Douglas on February 21, 2018 at 4:28 pm

    Another “great recession” would be end game for many private sector pensions also, and personal IRAs and 401(k)s. Not to mention increased unemployment and decreased revenue for New Jersey and every other state.

    No man is an Iland, intire of itselfe; every man is a peece of the Continent, a part of the maine; …. any mans death diminishes me, because I am involved in Mankinde; And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; It tolls for thee.


    • Posted by Tough Love on February 21, 2018 at 4:38 pm

      Single-employer Private sector pension Plans are now slightly less than TWICE as well funded as are Public Sector Plans when valued using identical assumptions and methodology.


      • Posted by Anonymous on February 21, 2018 at 5:06 pm

        Doesn’t change the fact that a recession would disastrous for almost the entire workforce. Many private companies laid off/cut back/etc.
        We been talking about this for seven years (since reforms) and the sky hasn’t fallen yet on public pensions. State run funds would go first.


        • Posted by Anonymous on February 21, 2018 at 5:11 pm

          There used to be a dipshit on here who would say “grab as much gold as you can”. The economy is doomed, and dollar will be worthless and those with gold will be king. Lol. What a fool. If things got that bad, my suggestion would be to invest in another precious metal. Lead. As in bullets. Gold would be worthless when folks who have everything taken from them come after your food/clothes/house. If it was that bad, police would not even be able to protect us. Nor would they if they weren’t being paid for it. That is a doomsday scenario that would only come to fruition if multiple disasters or multiple nuclear bombs were dropped on the country.


          • Posted by Stanley on February 22, 2018 at 10:43 am

            “There used to be a dipshit on here who would say “grab as much gold as you can”….”
            It is very difficult to predict what will develop and when, but it’s a fair bet that you don’t follow the news very well. How are conditions in Venezuela? Or Zimbabwe? Cuba has been on the ropes for almost 60 years. It cost 10 ounces of gold for a boat ride out of Nam in the mid 70s. Do you really think that gold bugs have not also loaded up with other metals such as lead? As a group I would speculate that they have strong balance sheets, paid up houses, vehicles and RVs, a conservative life style and so on. And the P/M sector DOES NOT correlate well with other sectors as a rule. When the sector was over bought in ’10 and ’11, it was probably a good sector to scale back on. But, what about other sectors in ’07 and ’08? And just maybe right now? I know people who lost a substantial part of their savings and 401K plans in the tech crash of the early naughts. Severe problems doesn’t necessarily mean the world of Mad Max.
            Equities and fixed have had a good run since 1982 similar to the run from 1950 to 1965. From 65 to 82 the Dow didn’t gain a thing while the cost of living tripled and fixed were also a very losing position. A younger person can be excused for thinking that equities always bounce back and trade higher–and he may be setting himself up to get his head handed to him. Good luck with your plan and you might think about retiring your IQ test.


        • Posted by Tough Love on February 21, 2018 at 5:27 pm

          I wasn’t “changing” anything………… just STATING a fact that many Public Sector Unions/workers like to ignore.

          Single-employee Corporate-sponsored Private Sector DB Plans have an average funding ratio in the mid 80s%. Public Sector DB Plans have an average funding ratio in the mid-high 60s% but valued using MUCH more liberal assumptions and methodology.

          If Public Sector Plans were valued on the SAME basis as are Private Sector Plans, their mid-high 60s% average funding ratio would drop into the mid-40s%. Few pension experts consider that a level from which a Plan can recover.


          • Posted by Anonymous on February 21, 2018 at 8:38 pm

            With the exception of some genuine sympathy for “Retired Police”, this entire thread makes me sick. I hope I am still alive to suffer through the angst of asset-less pension plans to see exactly what despotic states like NJ will do. Sure, raise taxes 35% and see how many homes are abandoned by those fleeing the state. Then it will just be the public sector parasites trying to extract blood from a stone.


          • Posted by Tough Love on February 21, 2018 at 10:33 pm

            Anonymous, It’s not the State that is “despotic”. It’s the insatiably greedy Public Sector Unions (with their “to-hell-with-the-taxpayers” attitude) and the Elected Officials that have betrayed Nj’s Taxpayers in exchange for Union campaign contributions.


          • The public sector parasites will be trying to extract blood from each other when and if push comes to shove……….we’ve already seen them throw new hires under the bus and of course the unions never allow getting rid of dead weight or incompetent workers……..it’s all disgusting but they were promised…….


  7. Posted by Retired police on February 21, 2018 at 6:30 pm

    I have read every post and it saddens me,yes there are flaws in the system, many on disability don’t belong there.
    However, when you are a 34 years old and your life changes from a vibrant strong
    young man to something else it has an affect.
    I posted regarding COLA for police officer not able to work due to sever injury while in the performance their of duty earning less than $25,000 dollars a year.
    We are in a class that most like to forget about because it reminds people it could happen to them. I pay for my own medical, it;s deducted from my check each month
    and I live on the rest.

    I don’t want anyone’s pity, as I stated before but I do want my COLA returned because
    I simply can’t afford to live without it. If you all feel I’m greedy then so be it.
    Fate chose my path, I was a good Police Officer and loved my job and had a bright future. Remember it can happen to anyone at anytime.
    Thank you all for your time reading my post.


    • Posted by Anonymous on February 21, 2018 at 7:18 pm

      And you deserve it. As well as our gratitude for your sacrifice and service.
      As I said before, there but for the grace of God go I , And I firmly realize that at any time my life can change like yours. In fact, any profession where an honest employee experiences a catastrophic injury like yours deserves to not Worry about paying he bills


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