Mindless Quoting

Bloomberg came out with a story today reviewing the sad fiscal state of New Jersey with some neat charts (reproduced at bottom) that kicked off with:

The fight in New Jersey over funding government workers’ pensions is coming to a head — and no one disputes that it’ll be costly to taxpayers.

But later in the story (emphasis added):

The measure, which has the support of public-employee unions, was introduced by Senate President Steve Sweeney, a Democrat, after state courts upheld Christie’s ability to pay less than called for under the 2011 law. If approved by voters in November, the constitutional change would put the state on track to make full actuarially required payments by 2022, save taxpayer money and cut the unfunded liability by $4.9 billion over three decades, he said.

I would be fine with the reporting on this statement if it ended with qualifiers like:

he said in all seriousness.

or

he said without an explanation of the obvious contradictions.

What should be obvious is that:

  • ‘being on track to make full actuarially required payments’ is weasel-speak for saying we will continue to renege on even the understated contribution amounts that actuaries allow us until 2022.
  • there is no backup for (or explanation of) that $4.9 billion number.  Is he saying that the unfunded liability now officially at $83 billion will be $78.1 billion in 2046?
  • the amendment does not alter benefits so there would be no savings of any kind to taxpayers* (except in a plan collapse scenario with benefit defaults).

.
nj pension funding
.
nj debt benchmark
.

.

.
* Even from that silly quarterly contribution ploy. If the state had the money to make quarterly contributions they could just as easily make earnings on that money outside the plan and put it in later as within it assuming they do not pay taxes on earnings.

78 responses to this post.

  1. Posted by Anonymous on January 20, 2016 at 1:01 pm

    TL it will be costly to taxpayers regardless of what happens!

    Reply

    • Any NJ politician that raises taxes even remotely enough to pay the drones their undeserved pensions will see themselves recalled within months thus ending their BS careers. They will all remember the Jim Florio debacle only on steroids this time. I can’t wait as the worse the fiscal mess gets in NJ the better I like it. Chickens coming home to roost!

      Reply

  2. Posted by dentss dunnigan on January 20, 2016 at 1:45 pm

    I guess that explains why GE or no other company would consider moving to this state ,as the exodus continues ,the remanding taxpayers get crushed …

    Reply

  3. Posted by Rex the Wonder Dog! on January 20, 2016 at 3:39 pm

    And I thought CA had it bad!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Reply

  4. Posted by dentss dunnigan on January 20, 2016 at 4:41 pm

    • Posted by Tough Love on January 20, 2016 at 6:40 pm

      NJ Taxpayers need a precedent …. workers whose pensions are materially reduced.

      Reply

      • Posted by dentss dunnigan on January 20, 2016 at 7:05 pm

        A BK could be a window into NJ’s future …“It would be good from a financial point for Atlantic City to file bankruptcy. We come out with a clean slate, drop about $40 million in debt alone and renew every collective bargaining agreement,” Guardian said. “What is not good is for the rest of the state, and we’ve stated that before. A bankruptcy in Atlantic City would mean that every other community could file bankruptcy and would not take the prudent steps of reducing costs, of reducing staff in order to have a good and lower-cost government.”

        Reply

      • Posted by Tough Love on January 20, 2016 at 7:08 pm

        At the very least, ALL of NJ’s State & Local DB Plans must be frozen for all current workers ….. just to stop digging the enormous financial hole we are in deeper every day.

        Material pension reductions in a City the size of AC WILL sent the needed message ….. accept less now or a LOT less later.

        Reply

        • Posted by Anonymous on January 20, 2016 at 10:37 pm

          Tax payers have paid virtually nothing towards the pensions, time to start paying

          Reply

          • Posted by Tough Love on January 20, 2016 at 10:58 pm

            When properly reflecting the time value of money, the workers RARELY pay more than 10% to 20% of pensions ROUTINELY 3 to 5 times greater in value at retirement than those of comparable private Sector workers retiring at the SAME age, with the SAME pay, and the SAME years of service.

            Sorry buddy but that is and unnecessary, unjust, unfair, unaffordable betrayal of the Taxpayers by elected officials BOUGHT with Public Sector Unions campaign contributions ….. and if you think that Taxpayers will be paying for it, …………………….I’ve got a bridge to sell you.

  5. Posted by MJ on January 20, 2016 at 4:55 pm

    So to get back to the nitty gritty of it all…..will the pension be paid or not? Can
    anyone say with any certainty at all without all of the usual dribble drabble?

    Reply

    • …will the pension be paid or not?

      You cannot be serious. Please, tell us you’re kidding! 🙂

      Look for progressive pension haircuts; in the 50%-70% range.

      But take solace in knowing that Chicago and IL will take bigger haircuts.

      Reply

      • Posted by MJ on January 20, 2016 at 6:48 pm

        But they were promised, that’s why they took all of those low paying jobs:). Of course I’m kidding!

        Reply

        • Not a pension!! It is deferred compensation for busting my ass for 25 years and only getting 20 sick days, 5 weeks of vacation, 15 holidays, 3 personal days, pension credit buy-backs and a partridge in a pear tree!!

          Reply

          • Posted by Tough Love on January 20, 2016 at 7:18 pm

            Seems like your repeated what “Now Retired Pat” outlined as his time-off when he worked. If so, you forgot his 5 “Comp” days. … IN ADDITION TO all that you mentioned.

            How outrageous …. nobody in the Private Sector gets so much time off.
            ———————

            And is pension “buy-back” was 5 years of service at 1/4 -1/3 it’s true value. Why, aren’t they ALREADY getting MORE than enough ?

            ———————-

            There needs to be a “Standard of Measure” to determine if the Taxpayers should pay for a Public Sector worker benefit ……. that being, if Private Sector workers typically don’t get it, NEITHER WILL YOU.

          • Posted by Rex the Wonder Dog! on January 21, 2016 at 3:54 am

            OK, as bad as all this NJ stuff this sounds, San Diego was WORSE..SD had the most mismanaged public pension plans (yes, plural!) in America. They had; 1) regular DB pension, highest was 3%@50 for “public safety”, but it gets better, they also had 2) “DROP”-deferred retirement option pension, probably the biggest pension scam ever…but wait, it gets better, they also had the ability to “buy air time”. The employees could PURCHASE 5 years of service credit, time that they did NOT WORK!…, and the SOONER you bought your “air time” in your career the less it cost you, as it was based on your annual salary at the time of purchase, that one cost the City $400 million..but wait, there is ONE MORE; 4) the SPSP plan, or ” Supplemental Pension Savings Plan” … SPSP was a 401k-type plan, where City employees contributions are matched dollar-for-dollar by the taxpayers, up to 6 percent of pay…it was insane! These are all gone, but only for NEW employees. If you maxed out the 3%@50, the DROP, the SPSP and bought air time at 5 cents on the dollar you became a multi-millionaire.

  6. Posted by The Resident Nutcase on January 20, 2016 at 8:57 pm

    Have any of you goofs noticed lately…. It’s just the five or six you…. All hating the public employees and their evil pensions….. Spewing your venom…. Like 5 or 6 old ladies complaining about the loud music and crazy clothes kids wear….. Lol!!!! Nobody even cares what you blog or say anymore. The blog used to get 80-100 posts!!! No we see 30 as a new high!!!
    You see….. Your tired redundant rants really get you nowhere!! The second a reader begins to read…. The same old tired hatred rants…. They simply move along!!!
    So… Good luck!! Have fun. And may the 5 or 6 of you get what you deserve!! Karma is a bitch.

    Reply

    • Posted by Tough Love on January 20, 2016 at 9:39 pm

      Quoting Sean from an earlier post ….

      “Nutcase seems to have the same formula for all of his responses:

      1. Start with a hateful attack on the person’s comments, and how it was a waste of his time to read it.
      2. Then, contribute zero to the conversation.
      3. Finish with a nasty assertion that it’s all very simple: Pay him HIS damn money.

      Other than vitriol, not much to offer…”

      Reply

    • Posted by Sean on January 21, 2016 at 3:12 am

      Nutcase,

      I think you had better wake up. The public awareness and anger are growing, slowly at first, but starting to build momentum. For every one of us “haters” who will post on these blogs, there are dozens and dozens of people who are expressing outrage over what they are beginning to understand. I talk to more and more of them every day.

      Truthfully, the only tired and worn out statements that are getting one nowhere belong to you, namely, that whole, “we earned it, you promised, taxpayers need to pay up,” yeah, those remarks. They are ringing more and more hollow every day, buddy.

      As for your statement that Karma is a bitch, I think you are indeed correct, and you would do well to remember your words, because Karma is coming to a theater near you, and a lot sooner than you think.

      Reply

      • Posted by The Resident Nutcase on January 21, 2016 at 8:26 am

        You mean…. You spread your venomous lies everyday ….. Sean!!!
        Pure propaganda!!
        Thankfully the labor of politics moves slow and the truth eventually comes out.

        Reply

    • Posted by bpaterson on January 21, 2016 at 2:32 pm

      Referencing nutcase’s posts-Under study, most of the 80-100 posts that are referred to from JB’s old past posts were came out to around 50 from PS workers, 25 from tuff love and 25 from miscellaneous others from both sides in the state who are concerned. Looks like most of the PS workers gave up for now and it works out to be a couple of die hard PS workers who want to shake tough loves tree, again tough love’s many retorts and now a few knowledgeable others that point out flaws in the pension funding or other out of state pension issues. However, like myself, there are still a lot of “readers only” of JB’s posts, if you notice in the blog stats count on the right side above increasing. In nut’s replies, as one points out, from both sides, what could be said already has been said. But reiteration is OK for any new readers to see where this issue stands regarding both sides sentiment.

      Reply

      • Posted by Tough Love on January 21, 2016 at 3:49 pm

        Well said …. and part of the reason I repeat much of what I have said before.

        The more readers that become educated on the ROOT CAUSE of the problem …. these grossly excessive Public Sector pension & benefit promises …….. the greater will grow the demand to end them.

        Reply

  7. He does have a point in that there does only seem to be a handful of blogs by the same people. I think people do move on only bc it is the same thing over and over about the pensions. I learned a lot here but honestly until I see significant reform with my own two eyes its just a conversation.

    Reply

    • Posted by Tough Love on January 20, 2016 at 10:35 pm

      MJ,

      I don’t believe any of the commentators supporting pension reform EXPECT our discussions here (or elsewhere) to be the straw that RESULTS in material pension/benefit changes. I understand the the DIRE position NJ’s Plans are in because I FULLY understand the “math”.

      Unfortunately politics being what it is (i.e., elected officials have ONE THING as Priority #s 1, 2, and 3 …. getting re-elected …. and that means trading their favorable votes on Public Sector pay, pensions, and benefits for Public Sector Union campaign contributions and election support) we will likely have to “crash and burn” BEFORE we fix this.

      And by “crash and burn”, I mean letting the Plans run Plan -assets to ZERO and only THEN have to actually choose between (a) VERY materially reducing pension and/or retiree healthcare payouts to retirees, or (b) raising taxes by close to $10 Billion.

      I’m betting they will choose (a) ….. because they WILL indeed be voted out of office if they choose (b).

      Reply

  8. Posted by Javagold on January 20, 2016 at 10:30 pm

    I will say what I said yesterday. Save your breath. The reality is gravity always wins. Those worthless IOUs will never be paid in full. Simple Math says they can’t. Just a matter of when ?? A few more 500 point drops in the Market should speed up their demise. And Oh yeah. Fuck Em. The public parasites deserve it.

    Reply

    • Posted by Tough Love on January 20, 2016 at 10:37 pm

      Indeed!

      Reply

    • Posted by The Resident Nutcase on January 20, 2016 at 11:22 pm

      Nice language…. Animal!
      You’re truly the parasite.

      Reply

      • Posted by Anonymous on January 21, 2016 at 4:14 pm

        Huh? Does that include det. Melvin Santiago how was shot in the face last year and killed, java? Or only the ones who are still alive? Do you really think he was a public parasite? You sir, are truly an awful human being.

        Reply

        • Posted by Sean on January 21, 2016 at 4:43 pm

          For what it’s worth, I DO understand your anger over the harshness contained in some of these posts; I know that BOTH sides get rather heated…

          And in the case of Mr. Santiago, I DO believe that we, as a society, should see to it that those who pay the ultimate sacrifice in the line of duty, can know that their survivors will be taken care of. We do OWE it to them.

          That said, I think you can ALSO understand that the public gets tired of reading of the spiking, double-dipping, and myriad other ways public workers game the system. For every Det. Melvin Santiago out there, who truly deserves honor, we read of the guy who collects a pension, with disability, for an injured knee, all the while happily running marathons, or on disability while entering bodybuilding contests. You are correct about Mr. Santiago, but you cannot have it both ways. The private citizens who pay for all of this, have EVERY right to feel outrage over what they are seeing.

          Reply

          • Posted by Tough Love on January 21, 2016 at 7:50 pm

            It’s not just those who “game the system” …. ALL Public Sector DB pensions (at EVERY income level) are are grossly excessive and unaffordable when compared to those of comparable Private Sector workers ………as are promised Public Sector “benefits”.

            It is getting quire rare to get ANY (yes ANY) employer-subsidized retiree heathcare benefits today, so why should taxpayers pay for them for Public Sector workers ?

          • Posted by Anonymous on January 21, 2016 at 9:32 pm

            Sean. I agree w you. I cannot stand the disability pensions for such nonsense. I also know there are many who game the system. I have NO use for them. I don’t think, however, that public employees are parasites. Some are most aren’t. Java would shit his pants if he had to work Santiago’s beat. A keyboard tough guy in his mommy’s basement. Loser.

          • Posted by The Resident Nutcase on January 22, 2016 at 7:42 am

            Sean,
            You are correct in that there are many abusers in the system. You think the private sector has halos over every head??
            Double and triple dippers need to go. Part timers and politicians should be out! Retire from the job…. You’re done! Carve the bad away. I agree.
            But the rank and file do not deserve this crap. Normal, everyday workers should not be called parasites from some keyboard nazi. Yes…. Take the bad out. Manage the funds better and allow ch78 to do its job.

          • Posted by Tough Love on January 22, 2016 at 11:58 am

            Quoting the Nutcase …..

            “Double and triple dippers need to go. Part timers and politicians should be out! Retire from the job…. You’re done!”

            No, that’s NOT done. PUBLIC Sector pensions (now routinely 3 to 6 times greater in value at retirement than those of their Private Sector counterparts) MUST be, for the future service of all CURRENT workers, reduced ALL THE WAY dowe to what Private Sector taxpayers typically get from their employers.

            As must Public Sector “benefits” such as active and retiree healthcare.

            You are NOT “special” and deserving of a better deal …. on OUR dime.

  9. Posted by Anonymous on January 20, 2016 at 10:40 pm

    Hi my name is TalkyTina Tina and don’t like you.

    Reply

  10. Posted by Anonymous on January 20, 2016 at 10:41 pm

    TL how r your investments doing

    Reply

    • Posted by Tough Love on January 20, 2016 at 10:49 pm

      Wonderful ….. been shorting the S&P via ProShares UltraShort S&P 500 ETF (SDS).

      Reply

    • Posted by Tough Love on January 20, 2016 at 11:07 pm

      Anon, With the equity drop, your Plan assets are will now hit zero just about 1 year sooner.

      ————————————————
      Those who live in glass houses ………………..

      Reply

      • Posted by The Resident Nutcase on January 20, 2016 at 11:21 pm

        And when the market rebounds? Like it does every single time….. Ugh….
        You’re fear mongering and scare tactics may peak the interest of the uninformed… The rest of us are simply amused by it.

        Reply

        • Posted by Sean on January 21, 2016 at 3:21 am

          When the market rebounds, you go LONG the S&P, via the SPY, Ultra or Ultra Pro ETFs, or any number of vehicles, genius.

          Have you ever noticed, Nutcase, that YOU are actually the person most guilty of all the things that YOU accuse others of? Have you ever noticed that?

          Reply

          • Posted by The Resident Nutcase on January 21, 2016 at 8:24 am

            You don’t know me Sean…… You’re the ex- teacher who thought they could make it big in the private sector. Not me pal!
            I honestly don’t care what you think. You don’t even live or pay taxes in NJ. You’re just a bandwagon fan! Fix your state champ!!
            And you’re wrong….. As soon as the market rebounds…. Things start to get better. If you think there are tens of thousand NJ residents with pitch forks and torches ready to burn the public employees out…. You’re so very wrong.
            Most public employees were against this constitutional ammendement….. But you’ll never read about that.
            Most want a seat at the table to talk about reforms….
            But you’ll never read about that. It doesn’t fit YOUR narrative.
            Keep on hatin champ!! Let’s see where that gets ya!!!

          • Posted by Tough Love on January 21, 2016 at 8:41 am

            Nutcase, At the current level of funded assets, if you understood the math you would realize it CAN’T “get better” because to do so, …… even WITH a raging bull market ….. your Plan needs TIME, lots of TIME. And with assets going out-the-door far faster than revenue/earnings are coming in, you don’t have that time, not even under the best of circumstances.

          • Posted by Sean on January 21, 2016 at 11:34 am

            And to add to what TL just said…

            Nutcase, after a bull market of more than six years, pension funds should be, at a MINIMUM, 100% funded, and optimally, funded in the 100% – 135% range (if you are drinking the kool aid on the whole “80% is considered a healthy funding ratio” myth, I suggest you do some research).

            SO, even after this last bull market, unfunded liabilities continue to GROW, and this isn’t just NJ. This is everywhere.

            Your funding levels, even after this bull market, are abysmal, and these abysmal funding ratios are themselves, based on ROSY projections and accounting gimmickry. They are actually much, MUCH worse, if you use accounting measures required in the private sector.

            Yes, the markets rebound every time. Correct. But the problem for these plans is, each and every rebound gains less and less ground, and it is far past the point of ever catching up.

            Sorry, but mathematics isn’t hate or propaganda.

          • Posted by Tough Love on January 21, 2016 at 12:16 pm

            Sean, The Nutcase is in “denial” because every OTHER option (no matter how likely) is an unacceptable outcome to those of his ilk.

          • Posted by The Resident Nutcase on January 21, 2016 at 2:10 pm

            So… Decades of the state NOT making payments into the fund had no negative impact?? Regardless of whether you think the benefits are too great or not enough…… The state failing to pay into the funds has made this the huge problem that it is. And saying…. Oh well…too bad simply isn’t going to cut it.
            It was ok to bail out banks and car dealerships…. The biggest thieves out there…. But public workers are scum right???
            You people are sick!!!

          • Posted by Tough Love on January 21, 2016 at 3:34 pm

            Nutcase,

            Full funding of a clearly unnecessary, unjust and grossly excessive pension should NEVER have been acceptable to Taxpayers …. and thankfully, they haven’t done so.

            And never will.

        • Posted by Sean on January 21, 2016 at 3:12 pm

          Quoting Nutcase:

          “So… Decades of the state NOT making payments into the fund had no negative impact?? Regardless of whether you think the benefits are too great or not enough…… The state failing to pay into the funds has made this the huge problem that it is.”

          You are correct. The state NOT paying in has most definitely had a profound effect on funding levels. Of course it has, but WHY weren’t the contributions always made? Do you think the state just partied away the money, in every case, or could it be possible that funding these promises was never realistic, even in the beginning?

          Another thing about the state not paying in. I know you love to remind me that I do not even live in NJ, but I will tell you something that I know about Illinois. There were MANY occasions when the state took a “holiday” from their required pension contributions, and they did so WITH FULL UNION SUPPORT. That’s right. They did this to avoid layoffs, or to deliver pay raises to their constituents, so it is SO bloody disingenuous to me to listen to public workers talk incessantly about “the state” not paying in. I’m sure you have no interest, but the book Illinois Pension Scam by Bill Zettler has full documentation of this, with photocopies of the signatures of union leaders. But I know stuff like this NEVER happens in New Jersey, right?

          “It was ok to bail out banks and car dealerships…. The biggest thieves out there…”

          And to your list of thieves, you can add, “public sector union leaders.”

          Reply

          • Posted by Tough Love on January 21, 2016 at 3:41 pm

            Unions are full participants in the COMBINATION of over-promising while under-paying BECAUSE they have always felt that somehow, someway (no matter how grossly excessive the promises) the pensions will always be paid in full and on time. Many still believe this, even thinking that the Federal Gov’t will bail them out if the State/Locality fails to do so.

            Ain’t gonna happen. Over the next decade, many plans will indeed run down to zero Plan assets, taxes will not be sufficiently raised to continue retiree payouts on a pay-as-you-go basis, and the checks will simply stop coming or be materially reduced.

            Greed HAS consequences.

          • Posted by The Resident Nutcase on January 21, 2016 at 4:46 pm

            Full of crap post Sean….
            The state failed to pay.. Bottom line!!!
            Because instead of raising taxes or cutting subsidies to private business who make millions…. They robbed the money from the public workers!!!! Because it was easy!!
            Never ever was the reason because they were to rich!!
            It’s simple theft.
            And now the time is up…..
            Pay the money back!!!
            Very cut and dry.

          • Posted by Sean on January 21, 2016 at 5:24 pm

            You just gotta love the Nutcase:

            “Full of crap post Sean….
            The state failed to pay.. Bottom line!!!
            Because instead of raising taxes or cutting subsidies to private business who make millions…. They robbed the money from the public workers!!!!”

            So, Nutcase, if the state had leveled with the people, at the time these ridiculous promises were made, and “raised taxes” to the levels necessary to pay for them, WHAT do you think would have happened? Very simple: They would have received the mother of all smack downs, that’s what would’ve happened. The taxpayers would have run them straight out of Dodge, and deservedly so. As for “cutting subsidies to private businesses” yeah, go ahead. Keep on running one business out after another. I’m sure companies just like GE are ITCHING to come to your shithole to make sure you guys get your precious promises paid.

            “They robbed the money from the public workers!!!!”

            No, they did not. That money was never yours to begin with. You were simply given unrealistic promises by politicians who were bullied into them by the union leaders. These promises were unaffordable, right out of the gate, but hiding that fact has worked for many years, until now. You just will not ever bring yourself to see it any other way.

          • Posted by Tough Love on January 21, 2016 at 8:03 pm

            Quoting Sean …………. “That money was never yours to begin with. You were simply given unrealistic promises by politicians who were bullied into them by the union leaders. These promises were unaffordable, right out of the gate …”

            It’s MORE than just “bullied”. The Public Sector Unions outright bribed our self-interested elected officials who where more than willing to trade their favorable votes on Public Sector pay, pensions, and benefits for camapign contributions and election support.

            It smacks of bribery and RICO violations.

          • Posted by Sean on January 21, 2016 at 8:36 pm

            Funny you should mention RICO. I have often wondered: other than physical violence, or the threat of it, how is the relationship between public unions and taxpayers all that different from the mafia and racketeering?

  11. Posted by Anonymous on January 20, 2016 at 11:52 pm

    Math

    Physics

    Reply

  12. Posted by MJ on January 21, 2016 at 5:19 pm

    When Nutcase or others talk about the subsidies to corporations, I would like to direct him to the article about GE moving from CT because of the high taxes and pension liabilities. Despite the state of CT will have substantially less in tax revenues, the public sector is NEVER adjusted to reflect that. The article states who the true losers will be: the small businesses, restaurants, mechanics, food stores, malls and retail outlets, auto dealerships in the area, real estate and housing industry,home remodeling contractors, roofers, plumbers, electricians and any other private industry that relies on people to purchase their products or services………but those left behind will still be expected to pay for all of the grossly excessive pensions and benefits of the publics and I bet not one public will be let go because of downsizing. Yup that town put all of their eggs in one basket and relied on one company and thought the gravy train would go on forever. Sound familiar?

    Reply

    • Posted by dentss dunnigan on January 21, 2016 at 5:27 pm

      Yep just like NJ when you rely on top 1% of the taxpayers to pay 40%plus of all taxes ….you’re setting yourself to fail …http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052748704604704576220491592684626

      Reply

      • Posted by Nave on January 22, 2016 at 2:45 am

        Richard Fletcher:
        “Every time that this nation has adopted what is known as supply-side economics, where the marginal taxes are lowered, particularly on the rich, the overall amount of income coming into the Treasury has dramatically increased. It happened that way in the early 1900s under two different administrations, again in the 60s with Pres. Kennedy, Ronald Reagan in the 80s, and again with George W. Bush. No one wants to believes it, but it’s true? Even Pres. Clinton’s surplus was partially generated by lower marginal tax rates, and sharply curtailed spending on the part of the Republican House following the 92 mid-term.”

        Reply

    • Posted by Sean on January 21, 2016 at 5:44 pm

      Very good point. Public sector workers seem to think they can be completely insulated from any and all CHANGE. The economy is in a downturn? So what. Pay us our money. Taxpayers are losing their jobs, and their homes? So what. Pay us our money. Really?! And you’re right: The only sector that grew in spite of the down economy was the government sector, that glorious place where a person has greater odds of DYING than losing their job.

      Reply

      • I consider the whole ridiculous spectacle of union/politician greed and corruption that allowed the creation (and amplification) of these obscene pensions and benefits to constitute grand larceny perpetrated against the private sector taxpayer on a massive scale. Because politicians in NJ are all professional liars and usually greedy and self-serving beneficiaries of the same BS pension gravy train, the non PS taxpayer was never represented at the “bargaining” table for any of these outrageous schemes. They should all be canceled and replaced with fixed, no COLA, maximum payout plans with payouts deferred until age 66. Absent that I absolutely cannot wait until these scams fail one by one and these thieves are left begging for handouts. On that I am with Javagold 100%.

        Reply

        • Posted by Sean on January 21, 2016 at 9:01 pm

          Wouldn’t it be interesting to see what would happen if union leaders came out and said, “Guys, you know that we do not have enough money to pay everyone their pensions. So we had a meeting, and we decided that, while everyone else in the public sector will not receive ANY benefits, we believe that fire fighters and first responders are most deserving, and will therefore receive full benefits. As you know, we are all equal; it’s just that some of us are more equal than others.”

          What would all the OTHER public workers say? Would they still be on board and supportive if THEIR group was suddenly not special enough, or would they be outraged?

          By the way, as fantastical as my question may sound, I would not be surprised one bit if a scenario like this actually played out somewhere down the road.

          Reply

          • Posted by The Resident Nutcase on January 22, 2016 at 7:31 am

            Because they are special….. In that one, they’ve consistently paid the most into the system….two, they have the better funded Local funds that are more sustainable due to the municipalities NOT taking pension breaks…three,umm…. They risk their friggin lives.

          • Yeah, we know…24 x 7, 365 days a year (of course not counting sick days, personal days, time spent sleeping on the job, watching football, lifting weights cooking spaghetti, etc. etc.)

      • Posted by The Resident Nutcase on January 22, 2016 at 7:37 am

        Chapter 78 spelled out many changes that if given a chance will work.
        You people seem to gloss right over this huge law Christie championed and taught around the nation as a huge success!!!!!
        So stop lying and saying public workers are insulated from change….
        Clearly that are not!!

        Reply

        • Posted by Tough Love on January 22, 2016 at 12:08 pm

          Nutcase,

          ANY and EVERY Plan will “work” if properly circulated ARCs are made…… the current plan design, one 1/4 as “generous” (in formula and provisions) or one 4 times as generous.

          My point ….. “funding” FOLLOWS FROM (and IN DIRECT PROPORTION TO) the level of Plan “generosity”. Extremely generous Plans are extremely COSTLY and hence very difficult to fully fund. The lack of full funding is not the CAUSE of the pension mess we are in, but a CONSEQUENCE of the real ROOT CAUSE ….. grossly excessive Plan “generosity”.

          Reply

    • Posted by The Resident Nutcase on January 22, 2016 at 7:34 am

      MJ…..give me a break.
      Businesses come and go….
      Spin it your way….. I’ll spin it mine.
      Read how many NEW businesses are or have come to NJ the past few years!!!!

      http://www.choosenj.com/New-Jersey-Business-Assets/Business-Climate/Major-Relocations-Expansions.aspx

      Reply

  13. Posted by Tough Love on January 21, 2016 at 7:36 pm

    Common NUTCASE …. you gonna sit still and put up with that ….. tell em how you’re “special” amd “deserving” of every grossly excessive penny you were “promised”.

    Reply

  14. You have got one of the better web sites.|

    Reply

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s

%d bloggers like this: