Two More Signs Of the Apocalypse for New Jersey Public Pensions

The two main reasons for the imminent collapse of New Jersey public pensions are the massive benefits promised but unfunded that the state can’t walk away from and the junk that now sits in the pension ‘trust’ made up of all those ‘alternative investments’ acquired for their inflated carrying values.  On Monday Moody’s and the Carlyle Group pulled aside the veil a bit more.

Accordi9ng to a northjersey.com story:

New Jersey’s low-end credit rating could continue to fall if the state Supreme Court rules that retired public workers are entitled to yearly increases in their pensions, according to Moody’s Investors Service.

A lawsuit challenging one of Governor Christie’s pension-reform laws is pending at the high court, specifically over a section that froze pensioners’ yearly cost-of-living adjustments. The court is expected to hear oral argument during its new term, which begins next month.

Analysts at Moody’s issued a rare warning on Monday. New Jersey’s “A2” credit rating, one of the lowest in the country for a state, could go down once again if Christie received “an unfavorable court decision in the pension litigation regarding COLAs,” Moody’s said.

According to a Wall Street Journal story:

Investors are preparing to pull roughly half their money from Claren Road Asset Management LLC, the latest blow for Carlyle Group LP’s hedge-fund firm.

Clients of Claren Road have requested nearly $2 billion of their money back from the New York firm, Carlyle said in a regulatory filing Monday. The money is scheduled to be paid back after Sept. 30, said a person familiar with the matter. The firm managed about $4.1 billion at the end of July.

The “carrying value” of Carlyle’s investment in Claren Road has fallen from $216 million as of June 30 to potentially nothing or as much as $75 million, the private-equity firm said in its filing. It expects to take a noncash charge in the third quarter of between $100 million and $175 million that involves a “high degree of judgment” and could change.

The is worse than Jessica Alba for New Jersey pensioners.  Look at a list of alternative investments in the Division of Investments portfolio last year and you find on line 60:

Investment: Claren Road Credit Master Fund
Year bought: 2012
Initial Investment: $250,000,000
Still invested: $263,644,276
Category: Hedge Fund
Fees: $4,352,822

Another quarter billion dollars (plus fees) that won’t be there to pay those skipped COLA payments that the courts will likely reinstate.

76 responses to this post.

  1. Posted by Tough Love on August 19, 2015 at 1:45 am

    Quoting ….”… the imminent collapse of New Jersey public pensions …”

    I wonder if Sweeney ever reads this Blog.

    Reply

  2. Posted by Anonymous on August 19, 2015 at 6:36 am

    Alternative investments only benefits the fund’s management team and we all know there’s no way in h*ll the NJSC will reinstate the COLA – next blog please.

    Reply

  3. Posted by Anonymous on August 19, 2015 at 6:56 am

    The members have no choice in where their money gets invested, only that they pay every two weeks!

    Reply

    • Posted by MJ on August 19, 2015 at 8:03 am

      Becasue members do not have a choice in where their contributions are invested is all the more reason to make the significant reforms as soon as possible so that publics can plan and save for thier own retirements. Much more cruel and unethical to keep stringing the publics along as opposed to making the reforms and allowing publics to better plan. Cadilac health benefits for the family and generous monthly pensions from age 55 for the rest of their lives and then some. ……..no honor among thieves

      Reply

      • Posted by Anonymous on August 19, 2015 at 9:57 am

        MJ stealing TL’s lines or? Prospective reforms and specifed by the P&B Commish with dedicated funding else it’s c.78 by another name.

        Reply

        • Posted by MJ on August 19, 2015 at 1:47 pm

          I don’t need to steal anyone’s lines. I was trying to be realistic in stating that the sooner the better for significant reforms while trying not to laugh at the naievity of the publics in believing that the government has their best interests at heart and that they will live out the fantasy of cadillac health plans and early, generous pensions for the rest of their lives. We all have to realize that what we are seeing is the beginning of the end, nowhere near the smack of reality. That’s why publics should take responsibility for their own retirements instead of relying on a corrupt, inept and immoral government to take care of them.

          Reply

          • These ridiculous pensions are much more than “taking care of them”. Six figure Boat checks on the way out and $100,000 annual pensions after “working” a whole 30 years (imagine that!) is way way more than “being taken care of.”

            Any empathy I may have had for the looming empty pension envelopes went away after about $50k per year @ age 65.

          • Posted by Tough Love on August 19, 2015 at 3:11 pm

            The ONLY obligation that the Taxpayers should accept is to CONTRIBUTE towards Public Sector pensions an amount EQUAL to what comparable Private Sector workers get from their employers …. easily demonstrated to be consistent with pensions with a value 1/4 to 1/3 of the current promises made to Public Sector workers.

          • Posted by Anonymous on August 19, 2015 at 3:51 pm

            Oh you mean the way Corporations do via golden parachute for their executive paid for by taxpayer funded tax breaks – PLEASE.

          • Posted by Anonymous on August 20, 2015 at 2:10 pm

            PDDrone: It is a relatively small number of people statewide that walk away with six figure boat checks and $100,000/year pensions after 30 years. High level cops and firefighters with school supers and judges. Agreed, ridiculous and people who agreed to these contracts are the problem.

            Otherwise, all NJ state workers have a $15,000 cap on unused sick time payout. The average pension I believe is probably around $40,000/yr.

          • Posted by Tough Love on August 21, 2015 at 11:39 am

            Nice try but your position is patently false ………

            You see, the REASON the the VERY large pensions …… NJ’s RICH pension formulas and GENEROUS provisions (such as full/unreduced retirement at VERY young ages, and COLAs, now suspended), resulting in pensions TYPICALLY 3x-4x greater in value at retirement than those of Comparable Private Sector workers with the SAME pay, SAME years of service, and SAME age at retirement) …… extends to ALL of NJ’s Public Sector workers.

            It is no less UNJUST and UNFAIR (to Taxpayers) when a NJ retiree gets a $50,000 annual pension (starting at 55 with no early retirement reduction) when the similarly situated Private Sector worker would likely get no more than $30,000 annually and starting at 65. That’s NOT a 50,000/30,000 = 1.60 times pension advantage It’s DOUBLE that advantage (3.2 TIMES what the Private Sector workers gets) when the incremental “value” of the PUBLIC Sector worker being able to collect his/her FULL/unreduced pension at an age 10 years younger.

            EVERY PUBLIC Sector pensions is MULTIPLES greater in value than their Private Sector counterparts …. at EVERY income level.

            I comment to educate Private Sector Taxpayers as to the magnitude of the decades-long financial “mugging” being perpetrated upon them via their grossly excessive pension & benefit promises.

            The END of this outrageous ripoff is not far off.
            ———————————————–

            And YES, we should FULLY fund Public Sector pensions …… but ONLY ones that are EQUAL TO (but no greater) in value than what Private Sector Taxpayers typically get from THEIR employers.

  4. Posted by fouls123 on August 19, 2015 at 2:27 pm

    If the state continues to short the pension payments it really doesn’t matter what reforms are made. Regardless, the state is on the hook for the pensions and will just have to come up with the money through a combination of higher taxes, possibly school district consolidation,federal assistance and probably bonds, extending the debt into the future as far as possible which of course will cost more in the long run the same as a mortgage or longer car loan. Most of our tax burden is for schools in NJ. My property tax bill is 80% school taxes. and another 350 dollars of my property taxes goes to open space which is essentially free money to wealthy politically connected land owners who are getting paid. in many cases for land they can’t sell or a subsidy for businesses like tree farms and the like. The income tax is not that high.When Whitman lowered income taxes, she shifted the tax burden more to the middle class through higher property taxes. A person making 500000 a year probably saw their property taxes rise 4000 dollars, but their income taxes dropped 15000 dollars, a net tax cut of 11000 dollars. Someone making 70000 had a 3000 dollar property tax increase, but got only about a 700 dollar income tax cut for a net loss of 2300 dollars. Raise the income tax and lower the property taxes back to pre Whitman and middle class tax payers wouldn’t feel so overburdened,

    Reply

  5. Posted by Anonymous on August 19, 2015 at 3:22 pm

    What i do not understand is how PW’s think that they come before millions of other NJ residents. The public workers are outnumbered by the private sector so in the end who should ‘win’. The greatest good for the greatest number.

    Reply

    • Posted by Anonymous on August 19, 2015 at 3:47 pm

      If so then why the need to spew your venom it s/b, as you’ve indicated, a slam dunk done deal – yeah right you all keep dreaming!

      Reply

      • Posted by MJ on August 19, 2015 at 4:26 pm

        Boat checks, pay outs, double dipping, triple dipping, holding several public jobs at one time, vacation and sick time pay outs, retiring at 45-50 then being paid for yet another job, inefficient, unqualified publics in jobs due to nepotism and cronyism…..the list goes on and they wonder why the pension system is collapsing right before their eyes

        Reply

    • Posted by twentysixpointtwo on August 19, 2015 at 9:21 pm

      “Greatest good for the greatest number”? Reading Marx?

      Priorities? NJ budget includes $9.8 B for pw pensions and $9.2 B for welfare programs-not including education. Pw’s contribute to that $9.8B and expect their contributions will be invested wisely–not as a source of fees to irresponsible crony investors such as CC’s high school buddy. Generational welfare recipients- which too often include the able-bodied-do not contribute; yet I never hear of the social welfare accounts running low.
      Rule of law should protect everyone regardless of who thinks it is and isn’t “fair.” If pw benefits are becoming unaffordable in light of all the other demands on our state budget, make the necessary changes to the law to protect all in a nation of laws.

      Reply

    • Posted by twentysixpointtwo on August 19, 2015 at 9:29 pm

      “The public workers are outnumbered so who should win?” Sounds like two wolves and a lamb “voting” on what they should have for lunch! ( Thank you, Ben Franklin for the analogy.) This is why we have laws. As I already stated, there is a legal process for change. It should be respected.

      Reply

      • Well the prisoners have been running the prison that is the State of New Jersey for the last 40 years. Time for the National Guard (e.g. the private sector taxpayers) to restore order.

        Reply

        • Posted by Tough Love on August 20, 2015 at 12:54 am

          Well Said !

          Reply

          • Posted by Anonymous on August 20, 2015 at 11:47 am

            Yeah let Wall Street private sector goons lead us into oblivion – still the moronic idiots!

          • Posted by Tough Love on August 20, 2015 at 12:23 pm

            As you say …”Yeah” ….. keep trying to justify the outrageous Public Sector pension & benefits, and trying to divert attention form the VERY obvious need and justification for VERY VERY material reductions, by pointing out OTHER Societal problems that have absolutely NOTHING to do with it.

          • Posted by Anonymous on August 20, 2015 at 5:25 pm

            Oh really the old two wrongs don’t make a right, punish those who follow the rules and let others get away with?

          • Posted by Tough Love on August 21, 2015 at 11:47 am

            Anonymous,

            Assuming your comment time-stamped August 20, 2015 at 5:25 pm was directed to me, I believe it is YOU who is ignoring the old proverb that “two wrongs don’t make a right”.

            Clearly the grossly excessive, unnecessary, unjust, unfair, and unafffordable Public Sector pensions (always MULTIPLES greater in value than those of similarly situated Private Sector workers) is a “wrong” …… and YOU seem to be trying to justify THAT “wrong” because OTHER Societal “wrongs” exist (e.g., noting Wall Street’s greed).

            Your self-interest and greed is clouding your judgement.

      • Posted by BH on August 21, 2015 at 9:39 am

        With an attitude like that, it’s no wonder the public workers won’t negotiate. When you put them into a corner and treat them like criminals, you only make matters worse. Blaming the workers will do no good. They did nothing.

        Reply

        • Who cares if they “negotiate”? When the checks stop being delivered then they can cry in their beer.

          Reply

          • Posted by Tough Love on August 21, 2015 at 11:48 am

            LOL

          • Posted by BH on August 21, 2015 at 1:35 pm

            Such a stupid comment. Lol. Like we will ever……ever, stop sending out checks!!! Just ask the welfare recipient who gets $800 a month more per baby. Without even trying to hold a job…. You wanna talk about corrupt and leaches and lazy. But god forbid anyone talks about that.

          • Posted by Tough Love on August 21, 2015 at 2:33 pm

            Sorry, BH, but you WON’T succeed in justifying the current grossly excessive level of NJ’s PUBLIC Sector pensions & benefits by pointing out OTHER Societal problems.

            NJ’s Grossly excessive Public Sector pensions must be MATERIALLY reduced (for the FUTURE service of all CURRENT workers) IRRESPECTIVE of OTHER problems that NJ need to address.

          • Posted by S Moderation Douglas on August 22, 2015 at 8:15 pm

            “all CURRENT workers” ?

            I thought we settled that: public sector janitors, clerks, laborers —— over compensated.

            Public sector lawyers, doctors, professionals, more lawyers ——– under compensated.

            Take from the poorest, give to the richest. It’s only fair. (According to the American Enterprise Institute)

  6. Those alternative investments really paid off for the unions and elected officials. In exchange for massive fees, they allowed the lying to go on for a few more years. Which is what they were paid for.

    http://r8ny.com/2007/01/11/hedge-funds-kiss-our-assets-goodbye/

    Note the date. It’s amazing what an even modestly knowledgeable person can see when they aren’t paid not to see it.

    Reply

  7. Posted by Anonymous on August 19, 2015 at 4:32 pm

    *S.O.S. & it’s not a maday call*

    Reply

  8. What the public employees should do, now before Christie screws them over again, is negotiate a new pension agreement, take the cuts now, minimize them, and not through a judicial cram down. Make sure there is dedicated $$$ with iron clad contract language as Christie does not keep his word.

    Reply

    • Posted by Anonymous on August 19, 2015 at 5:28 pm

      Absolutely, sounds like the P&B Commission suggestions but because of the $ amount the only way to negate a legal challenge is with a constitutional amendment – otherwise s*it happens when politicians get invovled.

      Reply

    • Posted by BH on August 21, 2015 at 9:44 am

      You won’t see any negotiations. Not when their governor is against them. Not when the people of the state are against them. Why would they?? Hold out as long as you can. Then when it collapses…. They still get paid. What all you people who blast them fail to realize… You can hate and spread venom, but at the end of the day…. You’ll all pay. Pay through the ears!! Then the upper elite will retire…. You’ll pay more….. Then those who are left will be disgruntled and really look to fleece the state. You think it’s bad now?? Lol!!!! You’ll have a broke state, filled with angry cops, firefighters, judges and teachers. And you’ll say, so what. Fire them. Hire others to do. But you know that won’t happen.
      So, good job. All your hate and jealousy will only sink the state deeper. And all the public workers will still get paid!!!

      Reply

  9. Posted by Anonymous on August 20, 2015 at 7:41 pm

    Any virtual update on the net plan assets after the latest Wall Street bleeding?

    Reply

  10. Real world example… I am 53 and will retire in December with 31 years of service credit towards my pension. That equates to roughly $3K per month in retirement. (Not enough to actually live on)! My healthcare will be free if I participate in a wellness program – otherwise I will continue to pay $70 p/m for single coverage. Dental is not included and will cost $35 p/m.
    Does anyone here think that after 31 years of contributions and loyal service that $36K a year is too much??

    Reply

    • Posted by Anonymous on August 21, 2015 at 9:49 am

      It is more than maximum SS payout which only rich people would get. In addition, the health insurance you get is cheaper than what private sector workers would ever get.

      Reply

    • Posted by BH on August 21, 2015 at 9:51 am

      They all do my friend!!! Those that don’t get it anyway. They pick the big pensions or the big payments and use that as their fight. They forget the majority don’t make six figures. They forget that all those with big pensions or boat checks are a dying breed. They all pay into healthcare now. What Chapter 78 didn’t remove, local collective bargaining did. There are caps in place now. But these blood suckers will never be happy. They don’t see the middleclass guy who worked a mediocre life with average pay will suffer from their hate!!! It’s a shame. But luckily they as a whole make up 1% of anything. And since 2% of the population vote, if and when the sh*t hits the fan…. Any vote will favor the workers!!

      Reply

    • Posted by Anonymous on August 21, 2015 at 10:11 am

      Based on your numbers, assuming maximum option and no joint life reduction, after 31 years of service your average three years salary at retirement s/b ~$68k? Certainly not outrageous, especially for NJ, but I guess that depends on your qualifications and job description.

      Reply

    • Posted by Anonymous on August 21, 2015 at 11:14 am

      Two things on the wellness program, do it earlier in the year and in addition to the doctor’s certification don’t forget to complete the HAT online. Also keep copies of everything because they’ll try to find something wrong to get you to pay.

      Reply

    • Posted by Anonymous on August 21, 2015 at 11:20 am

      I thought non wellness participation resulted in a contribution of 1.5% of half your last year’s salary? I think you might be closer to $50 monthly, not a big deal either way. Hopefully your budget can accommodate significantly higher premium share because it’s not a question of if but when.

      Congratulations, enjoy, and keep all your career and living options open.

      Reply

    • Posted by Tough Love on August 21, 2015 at 12:07 pm

      Pat, Depending on your salary ……….. but I’d bet that with 31 years and YOUR salary (whatever it is) and an unreduced pension at age 53 (assuming it is unreduced) …. that the “value” of a Private Sector worker’s pension assuming exactly the same particulars (pay, years of service, and age at retirement) as you would be 1/3 of yours (and likely less).

      Assuredly (even IF the Private Sector worker could retire at age 53) there would be an early retirement reduction of at least 50%. Combine that with a less-rich Private Sector pension formula (or worst, nothing but a 401K match), and it’s easy to see why what I’m saying is true.

      And free retiree healthcare …… at age 53 !

      Assuming that is for Family coverage, that will cost NJ taxpayers $25K-$35K annually. With employer-sponsored retiree healthcare subsidies all but GONE in the Private Sector today, why do you think that such Taxpayers who should pay for yours ? Are you “special” and deserving of a better deal on the Taxpayers’ dime?

      I suggest you develop a Plan “B”. While pension reductions for those already retired may also come, they will follow Future service pension accrual rate reductions for those still “active”, but there is a VERY high probability of material cuts in your promised retiree healthcare benefits …. and in the near future..

      Reply

      • Posted by Anonymous on August 21, 2015 at 1:24 pm

        Rewriting the P&B Commission report, a Christie like reformer through and through – not to be trusted!

        Reply

    • Why should you be allowed to collect any $ until age 65? Vested yes; collect now no. Another of many reasons the NJ pension plans are in such bad shape. When SS was invented you could not get a dime until age 65; then JFK instituted “early” retirement which lowered the age that you could get $ to age 62, but only after a haircut. Why should NJ pensions be any different?

      Reply

  11. Posted by Anonymous on August 21, 2015 at 10:13 am

    http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN0QP29520150820
    He saved us again? Or more like resigned before being terminated, all the while helping those (Wall Street bankers, etc.) who helped him (DONOR $)!

    Reply

  12. Just to clarify… I am a degreed accountant and my salary is $86K. My pension is actually $3.9K per month, but I was using NET numbers when I said $3K p/m. But my point is even at $4K gross p/m, that is NOT a huge pension! I also have deferred COMP but that is of my own doing. To date, I have contributed roughly $86K into the pension fund. It will be 2+ years of receiving my own money before I even get a FREE dime! And of course, I still have to work SOMEWHERE ELSE. I’m not actually ‘RETIRING’ I’m pretty much forced to keep working somewhere else. Just want to give up the time.

    Reply

    • Posted by Anonymous on August 21, 2015 at 1:31 pm

      So ~ net @$36k annually when $3.9k monthly is $46.8 annually, that’s a lot of roundingbbut you’re right not enough to keep you in NJ. I’d advise looking elsewhere.

      Reply

    • Posted by Tough Love on August 21, 2015 at 1:44 pm

      Pat, With the help of a quick spreadsheet I’d estimate that the accumulated value upon retirement of your annual pension contributions is between $190K and $220K (depending on the earnings rate assumption). For the sake of working with a single number, I’ll assume it is the midpoint or $205K.

      The lump sum present value of your $3,900/monthly ($46,800 annual) pension, assuming COLA is NEVER reinstated is just about 15 times the annual payout or $702,000, and about 20 times the annual payout if COLA is reinstated or $936,000.

      Long-term Blog readers will recall that I have OFTEN stated the following …” RARELY do Public Sector worker’s own pension contributions, including the investment income thereon, accumulate to a sum at retirement sufficient to buy more than 10-20% of the true cost of their very rich pensions, with Taxpayers’ contributions and the investment earnings thereon responsible for the 80-90% balance.”

      That statement was made addressing typical Public Sector DB pensions (not just those in NJ), which include COLA increases, now suspended in NJ.

      Let’s see what that relationship is for Pat ………

      Assuming COLAs are reinstated ………….. $205,000/$936,000 = 21.9%

      Assuming COLAs are NOT reinstated ….. $205,000/$702,000 = 29.2%

      While the 21.9% worker-share of Total Plan costs is a bit above the 10%-20% range noted in my above quote (likely due to the fact that NJ’s NON-SAFETY Public Sector pensions, while still MULTIPLES greater than those of similarly situated Private Sector workers, they are somewhat less generous than the average of such PUBLIC Sector pensions) one still needs to step back and ask ……….

      Is it “FAIR” for Taxpayers to pay for 100%-21.9%= 78.1% of the Total cost of NJ’s Public Sector pensions, pensions that are typically 3x to 4x greater in value upon retirement than those typically granted similarly situated Private Sector workers by their employers …. and all while evidence shows little difference in cash pay (and FAR FAR greater PUBLIC Sector retiree healthcare benefits) ?.

      I think NOT.

      Reply

  13. Posted by MJ on August 21, 2015 at 3:48 pm

    Sorry Pat, don’t feel sorry for you at all if that was your intention. 3900.00 a month plus your healthcare and sick time and vacation payouts? Most people in NJ don’t make that working a FT 40 hour work week with very modest benefits, not to mention they have to work until age 65-68 if they are lucky. Why do you deserve more than those paying most of the bill?

    Reply

  14. MH> No, not my intention to elicit sympathy. I am actually very grateful for the generous pension I will soon have. I was simply trying to say that after 31 years of indentured servitude I am (again, greatfully) in the position where I can bail out. My net pension check will approximate my net work-check in the end. For me, I would be working for free (or close to it) if I remained.

    I will continue working somewhere else and pay taxes (just like you) to support retired state workers (just like me). I have always (repeat: ALWAYS)known my eventual pension would be relatively generous – it is why I agreed to this job in the first place – and the only reason why I stayed here so long. I have also always worried about the unsustainability of the Ponzi scheme and I think I need to “cash out” before it’s too late.

    Going forward, I agree with all of what TL has been saying. The jig is up! Please forward my few remaining pension checks to Belize…

    Reply

    • Posted by Tough Love on August 21, 2015 at 5:22 pm

      Pat,

      Thanks for being honest and acknowledging the generous pension, courtesy of NJ’s Taxpayers. Most PW’s on this blog continue to deny that generosity.

      One of the VERY few advantages many Private Sector pension Plan often have over Public Sector Plans is that retiring participants can LITERALLY “cash out” by taking a lump sum that is the actuarial equivalent of their life annuity. Then, if their Plan fails at a later date, they lose nothing ….. quite important if their pension exceeds PBGC insurance limits.

      Where you say “cash out”, I’m assuming you mean “retiring”, not electing a Lump Sum Payout (that likely isn’t an option anyway). While the deteriorating pension mess in NJ is worsening every day via a continuation of the current unaffordable structure will likely (in the not too distant future) lead to a FREEZE or material reduction in future service pension accrual rates for CURRENT workers, keep your fingers crossed that it doesn’t get SOOOO BAD in NJ that those already retirees get whacked as well.

      Delay using that Deferred Comp account (and let it grow… with at least half in stock at your age) for as long as possible. Wishing you well ……. TL

      Reply

    • Posted by Tough Love on August 21, 2015 at 5:35 pm

      Pat,

      On a lighter note, by your own admission, and saying …….

      “Going forward, I agree with all of what TL has been saying. The jig is up! ”

      I believe you just gave BH a serious case of indigestion.

      Reply

      • Posted by Anonymous on August 22, 2015 at 5:48 pm

        “”I believe you just gave BH a serious case of indigestion”””
        No, a public employee who now admonishes and condemns the very pension they will recieve doesn’t bother me. That’s arrogance and stupidity. I’ve been dealing with that from you for months now.
        What irks me is the blatant lies and misdirection found on this blog!! It’s all so subjective. One person thinks it’s wrong ,while others think it’s right. One person posts a point of view…. Others oppose it.
        The bottom line…at least for me…is the demand that the local plans be separated from the state plans.
        You cannot compare the two because they are apples and oranges. Until we can do that, it’s a stalemate. And you and I both know….yeah…you too psdrone… Taxes is going up for us all. In the end….. The publics healthcare is gonna get a tweeking, but the pensions will remain the same. There’s not enough interest right now. It’s all about the governor and his failed attempts at anything.

        Reply

        • Posted by BH on August 22, 2015 at 5:49 pm

          That’s BH above BTW
          Logged out for some reason

          Reply

        • Posted by Tough Love on August 23, 2015 at 2:27 am

          Quoting …”What irks me is the blatant lies and misdirection found on this blog!!”

          A “Misdirection” is your opinion, so I’ll skip that, but please identify those “blatant lies”….. and we can debate that.
          ——————————————-

          Local and State Pension Plans (especially for Safety workers) are BOTH grossly excessive (and hence VERY costly) EQUALLY egregious.

          It is this grossly excessive, unnecessary, unjust, unfair, and unsustainable GENEROSITY that MUST be addressed for BOTH State and LOCAL Plans. The BEST option, as recommended by the NJ pension Commission, is to FREEZE all of these Plans for the future service of all CURRENT workers. If that’s not possible, the pension accrual rate should be no less than halved for non-safety workers and reduced by 2/3 for safety workers (or only halved if they agree to a full actuarial reduction in payout for collecting a pension before age 62).

          Private Sector Taxpayers are tired of being the SUCKER in the equation.

          Reply

  15. Posted by dentss dunnigan on August 21, 2015 at 4:52 pm

    With the stock market plunging to pre 2014 levels and interest rates all time lows how will the pension ever achieve that 7% return or is the taxpayer supposed to make payments plus market losses …..yep the jig is up …

    Reply

  16. Posted by Anonymous on August 21, 2015 at 7:17 pm

    It’s deferred compensation and self serving snapshot analysis are at best misleading. If anyone is interested in the unbias truth average the conservative and liberal perspectives expressed here and elsewhere.

    Well some publics (maybe most) refuse to admit or acknowledge the need for additional reforms, they’re coming. Anything short of the P&BCommission recommendations will only guarantee its failure. Time for our politicians, unions, and taxpayers to get together and get it right once and for all.

    Reply

    • Posted by Tough Love on August 21, 2015 at 8:04 pm

      It’s not rocket science …….. PW’s should get “Total Compensation” (wages + pensions + benefits) EQUAL in value to what Private Sector workers typically get in comparable jobs (or jobs with similar risks, knowledge, experience, and educational requirements, and skill sets where not directly comparable).

      The problem is that CURRENT (yes CURRENT) PWs REFUSE to give up the very material Total Compensation ADVANTAGE they have today …. estimated by the AEI Study often quoted on this Blog to be a level annual 23% of pay ….. and assuredly much higher had Safety workers (with far higher average pay and the MOST generous, costly, and egregious pensions) been included in the AEI Study.

      Reply

      • Posted by S Moderation Douglas on August 21, 2015 at 8:20 pm

        Jim Reilley • 2 days ago
        Yes, let’s strip little old lady secretaries of their only hope of retirement after promising them for decades that it was secure.

        Not only is it immoral, it’s illegal.

        Reply

        • Posted by Tough Love on August 21, 2015 at 8:36 pm

          S Moderation Douglas,

          How come the little old PRIVATE Sector secretaries count less to you ….. with likely 1/3 to 1/2 the pensions and ZERO retiree healthcare benefits. Without doubt, THEIR situation is MORE dire ….. and negatively contributed to by the greater pensions & benefits granted their Public Sector counterpart.

          Reply

          • Posted by Anonymous on August 21, 2015 at 8:49 pm

            Vinyl records are obsolete because? Glad you asked – they eventually skip and repeat the same (misleading) stuff, over and over again!

          • Posted by Tough Love on August 21, 2015 at 8:53 pm

            Anon,

            I await your posting of what I stated that was “misleading” and we can debate it.

            Be specific.

          • Posted by Anonymous on August 21, 2015 at 9:34 pm

            Oh ok and I’ll do so when you do so, typical demanding without responding – don’t ask what because you already know.

          • Posted by Tough Love on August 21, 2015 at 9:52 pm

            Figures, all talk …. accusing me of “misleading” statements ….. and then refuses to identify any.

      • Posted by Anonymous on August 23, 2015 at 7:56 am

        I think PW’s are terrified of taking responsibility for their lives and saving for their own retirement. They want to be coddled. They want guarantees in life where only two exist.

        Reply

        • Posted by Tough Love on August 23, 2015 at 6:57 pm

          It’s a brave new world, and Private Sector Taxpayers are fed up with being the financial MAMA for their “Children’s” (the Public Sector workers’) every financial need.

          Reply

          • Posted by S Moderation Douglas on August 25, 2015 at 3:27 pm

            The world is much braver than you know.

            And the taxpayers have been fed a line of bull. Some of them are “fed up”, but they have no real understanding of the nature of the problem.

            Which means they are dead certain to come up with the wrong ” solution”.

          • Posted by Tough Love on August 25, 2015 at 5:58 pm

            Money talks and BS walks …. when the Plans approach zero assets, it’s game over for BOTH actives and those already retired.

            And NJ is not very far off.

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