Phonying Up Numbers To Suit Your Client

Not only am I not being informed when I watch news reports about Wall Street, but I swear to God, it feels like I am somehow having information erased from my brain. Jimmy Dore

There was an njspotlight story on how a plan for New Jersey to put in their pension contributions in 1/10th intervals would cost more than the 1/7th schedule purportedly in place now which included a handy chart that the actuaries would have developed that had a column projecting the state’s Annual Recommended Contribution (ARC) through 2045.

For FY2045 the guess was that the ARC would be $5.06 billion. For FY2018 the full 7/7ths amount was estimated to be $4.48 billion.  That comes to a 13% increase in the ARC over 27 years.

But according to a recent bond disclosure filing over the last 6 years the full ARC for the state portion of the plans actually went up 76% from $2.231 billion $3.935 billion:

nj-pension-contributions
.
Projecting that $3.935 billion ARC for FY2015 to FY2045 using the actual percentage increase over the last 6 years would develop an ARC in FY2045 of $67 billion. Again, the number the actuaries came up with to present to decision-makers and the public for FY2045 was $5.06 billion. Hardly a rounding error.

97 responses to this post.

  1. Posted by Tough Love on May 26, 2015 at 10:41 am

    I just looked that njspotlight story. In it Sweeney said…..

    “You’re pushing the state deeper into debt,” Sweeney (D-Gloucester) said in an interview with NJ Spotlight. “I don’t think we should be passing the buck to the next group coming in.”

    Earth to Sweeney ….. and what are we doing RIGHT NOW …. and have been CONSISTENTLY DOING for decades via endless benefit increases and WAY to liberal Plan valuation and funding assumptions ?

    ALL politicians are cut from the SAME mold…… self-interest, lies, and money trees.

    Reply

    • Posted by Anonymous on May 26, 2015 at 11:02 am

      TL your posts are a total waste of time. Nothing is getting accomplished by your accusations and complains. Well, you probably already realize that.

      Reply

      • Posted by Tough Love on May 26, 2015 at 11:05 am

        How about commenting on the SUBJECT of John’s post …. instead of me.

        You know … something perhaps contributory, meaningful, and of substance.

        Reply

        • Posted by dentss dunnigan on May 27, 2015 at 10:40 am

          I believe TL has provided insight into the pension mess ,yes her view is slanted towards saving the taxpayer and not the unions .She ha opened up my eyes to the really big mess this state is in and for that i’m thankful .But it does appear that the union thuggery that has attacked her is trying to take away the true focus of this blog . New Jersey’s pensions how we arrived here and how will we exit so both sides will be comfortable with any settlement .

          Reply

          • Posted by BH on May 27, 2015 at 10:49 am

            But that IS the issue!!! Pointing at the workers and laying blame on them is wrong. Let’s blame the real guilty parties!!! The government for NOT making the payments for decades and the taxpayers who reaped the benefits from the money in tax breaks, pet projects and subsidies!!
            Let’s point the finger at the healthcare providers for allowing them to run unchecked for years as they raise rates.
            But we all want to forget the real reason because it will cost us more money in taxes. Well, too bad!!! We all reaped those benefits, now it’s time to pay up.

          • I agree – with one addition.

            The public pension crisis would not be as severe and would have been much more transparent over the years if there were not an actuarial infrastructure abetting misinformation (specifically undervaluing benefits for the immediate gratification of all parties) the exposure of which I try to make the primary purpose of this blog.

          • Posted by Tough Love on May 27, 2015 at 5:57 pm

            Replying to BH….

            Yes, “let’s blame the real guilty parties”. and where does doing so take us:

            (1) The “guilty” parties are primarily our Elected Officials who betrayed the Taxpayers by giving in to their need and desire for Public Sector Union campaign contributions and election support, and in exchange for that money & support granted pensions and benefits (the true cost of which could be deferred and easily hidden) FAR in excess of what was necessary (to attract and retain a qualified workforce), just, fair to taxpayers (responsible for 80-90% of total Plan costs) and clearly unaffordable. While the “primary” blame falls upon our Elected Officials, (as they COULD have, and SHOULD have resisted the efforts of the Unions), a large dose of the “blame” also falls upon the Unions & workers for BOTH their insatiable greed in demanding ever-increasing pensions & benefits that their leadership knew were both WAY more than those granted in comparable Private Sector jobs, and ESPECIALLY for their refusal to lower those demands as that unaffordability became very clear.

            (2) Your claim that the guilty party is the ……….. “government for NOT making the payments for decades and the taxpayers who reaped the benefits from the money in tax breaks, pet projects and subsidies!!” ……. falls flat VERY SPECIFICALLY because the calculated full funding amounts (i.e., the annual ARCs) not paid are A FUNCTION OF the pension Plan’s “generosity” (it’s formulas & provisions). If you design a VERY VERY generous Plan, the ARCs will correspondingly be VERY VERY high, and if the level of “generosity” is excessive and unjustifiable (as I claim it to be) then so is the corresponding ARCs. Forcing taxpayers to pay such excessive ARCs is no more defensible than granting these excessive pension in the first place.

            (3) While the “workers” are (individually) only minimally to “blame” for the predicament we are now in, THEY ARE indeed the “financial beneficiaries” of the collusion between their Unions and our Elected Officiasl in the form of the grossly excessive pensions & benefits now in place. Taxpayers have EVERY RIGHT to unwind this double-dealing, and the ONLY way to do so is to prospectively end those unjust “promises”, taking them away form those who are now (and will continue to, unless undone) benefit from them ….THE WORKERS. At a MINIMUM, the pension accrual rate for the FUTURE Service of all CURRENT workers should be VERY MATERIALLY REDUCED … and there is EVERY justification to set that new level at the level typically granted reasonably comparable (in job risks, education, knowledge requirements, and skill sets) Private Sector workers …. even if that requires a 1/2-2/3 reduction as I would expect (but only BECAUSE current “promises” are so grossly excessive).

          • Posted by Tough Love on May 27, 2015 at 11:03 pm

            dentss dunnigan,

            Thank you for the words of support . This is a lonely place for someone so strongly advocating for pension reform as I do.

            I noticed that you said (at the end of your above comment) …”and how will we exit so both sides will be comfortable with any settlement .”

            I believe the current situation to be SO DIRE, that rather than both sides being “comfortable” with any resolution, they will both be VERY “unhappy” …. as ONLY very financially painful options will “work”, and anything NOT very painful is certainly NOT a real solution and just more “kicking the can down the road”.

            While I’m sure the workers will not agree with my proposals, note that I generally call ONLY for PROSPECTIVE (i.e., FUTURE Service) pension accrual-rate reductions and “trying” to honor PAST service accruals, even though the grossly excessive level of PAST Service accruals are undeniable. THAT is a MAJOR concession, whether they accept it as such or not.

            What I won’t give into is the ridiculous “I was “promised” argument or the “it was negotiated” argument with respect to FUTURE Service, as those making the “promises” and those acting as “negotiators” (being participants in the same or similar pension & benefit Plans) were and are “conflicted” and personally benefit by a continuation of the current excesses …………. the “snakes” negotiating with “snakes” argument.

            Above I said …. “and “trying” to honor PAST service accruals”. While current Public Sector “actives” and those already retired may think this is a given, they shouldn’t, as. it will DEFINITELY be a very major struggle to pay off the existing UAAL. Given the grossly excessive nature of PAST service accruals, they need to be responsive in working WITH the taxpayers in “trying” to NOT HAVE TO reduce these PAST (as well as FUTURE) Service accruals by accepting that their active and retiree healthcare benefits (and premium subsidies therefore) must be reduced (to a level comparable to those typically granted in the Private Sector) with the savings contributing toward the amortization of the PAST Service UAAL.
            ————————————————————————————————-
            The bottom line is that the era of gross excess (in Public Sector pensions & benefits) can no longer be accommodated by forced excessive taxation on current NJ’s current residents and those who may live here in the future (including those not yet born)..

  2. Posted by Anonymous on May 26, 2015 at 11:46 am

    TL and devout followers; individuals presenting a right wing conservative perspective based on half-truths and lies.

    TL continual posts repetitive misinformation citing sources with extreme ideology. Yet sumarial dismisses other posts with conflicting opinions and sources.

    Specifically, purposely misstated the tax status of public pensions in the following post; https://burypensions.wordpress.com/2015/05/22/christie-curses-out-nj-media/#comments When called to task tried to double talk their way out of it. Standard operating procedure for most of their commentary.

    Fair and equal for all is the mantra. Fair enough, but not when I suggest Federal workers and members of our beloved Armed Forces be part of the bigger conversation. The response, they’re different. But why, because they risk their lives like first responders at home. Their DBP are paid with Federal tax dollars as opposed to State or Local. Everyone knew the job risks when they accepted employment. But they also knew what their salary, pension, and benefits were supposed to be.

    To blame and demonize public workers for the current situation is unfair and untrue. Do politicians make “deals” with unions that don’t always have the taxpayers best interest? I think everyone knows the answer to that is yes. But politicians are always making “deals” it’s what they do. Just ask the various segment market corporations; defense spending (lucrative contracts), farming (subsidies) and the list goes on and on.

    Your bully tactics and demeaning attitude only motivate me more to push back your parties ridiculous vision for NJ and America. Yes I’m sure John knows all of our IP address, so you and your business name can be exposed as well.

    The purpose of continually posting this comment is to allow the counterpoint perspective to be heard. I will no longer personally engage your comments tit for tat.

    Reply

    • Posted by Tough Love on May 26, 2015 at 11:48 am

      9-th re-posting ….. Still off your meds ?

      Reply

      • Posted by Anonymous on May 26, 2015 at 1:24 pm

        Maybe you should get used to it. We are to the crap you post.

        Reply

      • Posted by Anonymous on May 26, 2015 at 1:42 pm

        bwhahahahahahhhaahahahahahahahh TL commenting that you have reposted, she has been reposted the same crap since prehistoric times!! TOO FUNNY! And yeah we are used to listening to her crap over and over, the same old stuff, nothing new

        Reply

    • Posted by Anonymous on May 26, 2015 at 4:42 pm

      They haven’t invented meds strong enought for this loser.

      Reply

    • I agree with you; ALL public sector worker pension plans, including all Federal employees (including military) should be modified downward to bring them into the world of fiscal reality. In addition:

      – Medicare and Medicaid should be rationed
      – early “retirement” for SS @ age 62 should be eliminated and
      – the retirement age for all pensions public and private should be pushed back to age 70.

      Is that more fair from your perspective?

      Reply

  3. Posted by Anonymous on May 26, 2015 at 2:29 pm

    TL- Once again you and 90% of our population are not equal to me and those in law enforcement. I enlisted in the Army at 17 and it was there that I learned what lazy,fat,arrogant slobs the civillian population is. Upon my discharge I knew I couldn’t be a part of such a lazy,do nothing,non productive group so I became a Law Enforcement Officer. We actually contribute to society while you just take and take. You and your disgusting ilk wouldn’t survive without us. We allow you to make a living by keeping you safe. Nothing you ever done is near what I have done for our country or our state. Just pay your bills like a good little lazy civillian and say thank you to me.

    Reply

    • Posted by Michael S Polish on May 26, 2015 at 2:33 pm

      Above post is from the one and only.

      Reply

    • Posted by Michael S Polish on May 26, 2015 at 2:34 pm

      Above post is from the one and only

      Reply

    • Posted by Michael S Polish on May 26, 2015 at 2:35 pm

      Above is from the one and only

      Reply

    • Posted by Tough Love on May 26, 2015 at 2:38 pm

      Please show your above comment to the chief of your Department as well as the Mayor of your town, and (if you have the guts), to your local newspaper.

      You have “issues” which make you a VERY poor choice for law enforcement.

      Reply

      • Posted by Michael S Polish on May 26, 2015 at 2:58 pm

        well speaking of guts what is your real name and business ? I’m sure you are quite comfy posting like you do in safety. I’ll stay in the shadows like you. I post on my own time on my own computer so it doesn’t concern my employer in the least. Over the years I have had no issues to speak of. I just don’t give any breaks to the lazy civilians. How else will they learn ? They sure didn’t learn anything at home.

        Reply

        • Posted by Tough Love on May 26, 2015 at 3:31 pm

          While I’m not a psychiatrist, I see big behavioral/anger/emotional/mental “issues” with you ….

          A few of your other comments:

          On 5/11 … “Quoting ……… “In all honesty most private sector positions are not needed.””

          On 5/15 …. “You don’t deserve equal to me,you work in an office and provide nothing of value for society. A trash man contributes more to society in truth.”

          And in a prior response to me …. ….”“As for my pension you will take it in the a$$ before I do in the form of tax hike. ”
          ————————————————————–

          While not a psychiatrist, I see big behavioral/anger/emotional/mental “issues” here….

          Reply

          • Posted by Michael S Polish on May 26, 2015 at 4:30 pm

            Nothing in post one represents anger or mental issues. We do not need the majority of positions that the private sector. The recession proved that. People were forced to choose what was needed and what was not needed. Post two is also true and is also not stated in anger,just my opinion of course,but not in anger. Post three not stated as well as it should have been,but I stand behind the premise of your taxes going up before the pension goes broke. As for the psychiatrist I have passed all required testing for the position including a psych evaluation and as you stated you are not a psychiatrist so you have no credence. I am not a psychiatrist either,but reviewing the majority of your posts one could sense a repetitive nature similar to OCD. Just saying.

          • Posted by Tough Love on May 26, 2015 at 5:17 pm

            Michael S Polish,

            With few Private Sector positions (as you suggest) where would the revenue come from to pay for your excessive pay, pensions, and benefits ? There would be little income to tax, and the PUBLIC Sector produces no “products” or sells no”services” that produces any revenue.

            Oh …. perhaps we should ramp up traffic tickets to $5,000 each to pay your compensation.

            Oh, but THAT wouldn’t work either … because without Private Sector jobs, the Private Sector would have little income to buy automobiles.

            Starting to get the picture ???
            ———————————————-
            P.S. I think you should transfer to “Corrections”. The “workers” (aka prisoners) are already doing very little and you would appear to be a much better fit THERE, than working with those (the Private Sector) for whom you show so much disdain.

            Before your NEXT Psych exam, I challenge you to show the doctor this string of comments.

    • “I enlisted in the Army at age 17″….because I was too stupid to go to college and do something more productive.

      “So I became a law enforcement officer”… because I was too stupid to use veterans benefits to go to college.

      Reply

  4. Posted by Anonymous on May 26, 2015 at 4:39 pm

    Police officers are some of the dumbest twits—i talk with them in the ER and i am amazed how they find their way home. Anywho–i agree with just about everything TL says on this blog. Spot on. Law enforcement and fire fighters are no more special then anyone else and deserve nothing more because of their jobs. In fact, their jobs are not even the most dangerous listed–so get over yourself.

    Reply

    • Posted by Tough Love on May 26, 2015 at 5:25 pm

      The BLS compiled that data to make a chart of the top ten most dangerous jobs. Guess who’s not in the top ten.

      10. Construction Laborers

      9. Electrical Power-Line Installers And Repairers

      8. Farmers, Ranchers, And Other Agricultural Managers

      7. Driver/Sales Workers and Truck Drivers

      6. Mining Machine Operators

      5. Refuse And Recyclable Material Collectors

      4. Roofers

      3. Aircraft Pilots And Flight Engineers

      2. Fishers And Related Fishing Workers

      1. Logging Workers

      Read more at http://thefreethoughtproject.com/bureau-labor-statistics-released-top-10-dangerous-jobs-report-police-officer/#VoYZ0vyPTm8tBskw.99

      Reply

      • It’s sad when BS artists believe their own BS. There is no question that firefighters have enjoyed the greatest free PR campaign of all time.
        “Heroes” 24 hours a day 7 days per week whether putting out fires or, more likely (95% of the time), lifting weights, watching football or other sporting events on TV or sleeping. Then after 25 or 30 years of doing not very much they demand a ridiculous pension (and of course a “boat” check for all their untaken sick and vacation time) so that they can go get a real job and live the life of Reilly while they laugh at the poor schmucks in the private sector who have to pay for all of it.

        Reply

      • Posted by Anonymous on May 26, 2015 at 7:56 pm

        TL you stupid twit, I was a driver for 30 years and you give me no respect, you are such a turd.

        Reply

      • Posted by Anonymous on May 27, 2015 at 7:33 am

        Different source, different results; http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2012/10/30/the-11-most-dangerous-industries-in-america

        There enough studies done on most things you can usually find a source to support your viewpoint.

        Reply

    • Posted by Tough Love on May 26, 2015 at 6:10 pm

      Story told to me from person puled over (NJ Town) …. and I’m NOT kidding;

      Driver gets pulled over (stopping in a legal parking space).

      Diver didn’t know the reason why he was pulled over (and rec’d no tickets), but the car registration had expired 1 month back (driver said he just forgot).

      Officer said that the car could not be driven …. the driver understood (car was in a legal parking spot anyway) and he told the officer that he would go to the MVC to renew the registration, come back and retrieve the car.

      Officer responded that that was not the correct way to handle the situation and that he should tow the car to the MVC so it is there when he gets the new registration.

      It took quite a bit of “convincing” the Officer, that that was NOT necessary … and would be a huge waste of money, as he could easily just get a ride to the MVC and back.
      —————————————————————-

      THIS is what we are told is the … “Best and Brightest” …. that we must pay so much for?

      Reply

      • I’m pretty sure this is standard procedure in NJ as I heard about it happening twice. First to my computer guy years ago in Passaic and the fine was ridiculous and then earlier this year where I had to drive a guy who got pulled over one night under the same circumstances the next morning to the DMV, the Roselle Park municipal building, and then the storage lot in Elizabeth – depositing money along the way.

        If anything I would think most police officers would be against doing it but they get pressure to do it for the money and if they don’t they can get in trouble.

        It’s sad because we have police concentrating on revenue generation instead of public safety.

        Reply

        • Posted by Tough Love on May 26, 2015 at 6:49 pm

          It did not appear that there was any “revenue generation” side to the case I just described above …… although I suppose the Officer COULD HAVE (but did not) said that a car with an expired registration could not be parked in the street and must be towed (to off-street parking), even though in a legal parking space as was the situation here.

          It seemed to just be a really really dumb officer … because he wanted the car towed TO THE MVC. (which would not have generated any revenue for the town anyway).

          Reply

          • Posted by Anonymous on May 26, 2015 at 7:58 pm

            give your real name TL if you really believe everything that you say, be brave

          • Posted by Tough Love on May 26, 2015 at 8:45 pm

            Why, so I can be harassed by Public Sector “takers” with a HUGE sense of entitlement and who are angry with me because of my strong advocacy for Public Sector pension reform …. or by those with a mentality as nutty as Michael S Polish and some of the “Anonymous” commentators posting here ?

      • Posted by BH on May 26, 2015 at 7:01 pm

        Break the law….. Pay the price. No excuse

        Reply

    • Posted by BH on May 27, 2015 at 10:54 am

      Quoting,”Police officers are some of the dumbest twits—i talk with them in the ER”
      Make such comments from the comfort of an office building, or your couch….
      Being in the ER, I guess I can assume you’re either a nurse or something… You see first hand the calls police and fire deal with on a constant basis, so it perplexes me how you can make that statement. Unless of course you’re like the janitor for the ER or something.
      In either case, your comment wreaks of jealousy. Take the test. Do the job…. Then comment. Until then… Stick to the basics.

      Reply

  5. Posted by Michael S Polish on May 26, 2015 at 6:57 pm

    the recession proved that the majority of private sector jobs were not needed. Those people still can’t find jobs because they have zero skills. The world only needs so many trinket sales people. a civilizations needs from the beginning of time haven’t changed.
    To thrive a society needs security,educators,doctors,farmers,construction workers,livestock handlers, etc. I think you get it people that actually PROVIDE something. Office slugs,investment slugs,insurance slugs,etc are not essential. Honestly you should just be thankful for the way of life we afford you. Honestly for someone who has provided nothing for their country or state you are just so arrogant towards those of us who afford you your life. If the world as you knew it ended tomorrow and money was a luxury who would society pay ? Me with my military/police training or you with your lack of real world skills ? I know I could survive.

    Reply

    • Posted by Anonymous on May 26, 2015 at 7:10 pm

      To me your one step from useless. You work at our pleasure–don’t forget it.

      Reply

    • Posted by Tough Love on May 26, 2015 at 7:51 pm

      I suppose we also don’t need …. doctors, lawyers, engineers, accountants, actuaries, clergy, electricians, plumbers, construction workers, masons, bricklayers, salesman, retail store clerks, computer programmers and …….acrobats and candlestick-makers either..

      Ooophs …. you graciously allowed for doctors and construction workers from my list.

      Hmm……. insurance slugs aren’t necessary ? I’ll bet your town has “insurance” to cover just about all the financial “risks” it may encounter …. including Civil judgements from Police Officers found Civilly liable for Police Brutality.

      Hopefully, we will never be in a position where ONLY those you name are truly necessary, because THAT situation will ONLY follow worldwide armageddon, perhaps from an asteroid strike, super-volcano eruption, or nuclear war.

      Reply

    • Posted by S Moderation Douglas on May 27, 2015 at 2:19 am

      There probably are a lot of private sector jobs that are “not needed”.
      If multitasking is an option, while we are solving the pension problem, we might also start to rethink “full employment”. For one thing, why are we now talking about raising retirement age when there are so many young and middle age people out of work?

      200 years ago, 90% of Americans worked in farming. Today it’s about 2%. Jobs for every American is doomed to failure because of modern automation and production. We really don’t need a lot of these jobs.

      Just one example; Ted Cruz, and others, wants us to “file our tax on a postcard” or at least greatly simplify the tax code. IRS estimates US businesses and individuals spend 6 billion hours a year complying with the tax code. That’s 3 million people working full time. If we managed to eliminate even half those hours, what would those people do? Are their jobs really necessary?

      Michael is right; a job just for a job’s sake is yesterday’s thinking.

      Personally, as a public employee, I provided a valuable service. Due to continually improved technology, we were able to provide more of the service with fewer people.

      There should be a new paradigm on the way, if we are wise enough to recognize it.

      Reply

      • Posted by Tough Love on May 27, 2015 at 10:19 am

        Quoting ….”IRS estimates US businesses and individuals spend 6 billion hours a year complying with the tax code. That’s 3 million people working full time. If we managed to eliminate even half those hours, what would those people do? ”

        Your comments just get more and more ridiculous.

        Likely 95+% of those 6 Billion hours (if correct) are spent by individuals filing their own tax forms/returns (either by hand or online) … and are ALREADY working (which is WHY they are filing a tax return).

        It these “hours were eliminated”, they would simply have more free time to spend as they please.
        —————————————————————————————-
        Quoting ……….. “Michael is right; a job just for a job’s sake is yesterday’s thinking.

        THAT sounds a LOT like 25+% of all Public Sector jobs. Go into any office, look at any road crew ……………… how many of the total appear to be “busy”, actually DOING something ?”

        Reply

        • Posted by S Moderation Douglas on May 27, 2015 at 12:05 pm

          LOL,

          TL: “I never lie.” (I just make up phony statistics)

          ” Likely 95+%” ???

          H&R Block alone prepares over 20 million returns a year with revenues over $3 billion last year.

          _______________________
          “look at any road crew”

          Pardon my cliche. BH is correct again. You are offering opinions on subjects you know nothing about.

          Reply

          • Posted by Tough Love on May 27, 2015 at 3:10 pm

            Opining on road crews of 5 with 2 working, and 3 BS-ing …. is a first hand observation . And it occurs FAR too often

            Maybe it should be a crew of 3 (not 5) … and perhaps we only “NEED” 3 of 5 or 40% of these workers.

            Just ONE example of the make-work Public Sector jobs for the well-connected and marginally-employable.

          • Posted by S Moderation Douglas on May 27, 2015 at 6:55 pm

            Not saying I would, but ….if…. I were to go back to that “Likely 95+% of those 6 Billion hours (if correct) are spent by individuals filing their own tax forms/returns….”

            BS “statistic”; would you accuse me of changing the subject? Or just admit that you are making up numbers out of the ether?

            And you obviously don’t know jack about NHTSA work zone protection requirements which apply to work on any road way or right of way which receives ANY Federal subsidy.

            3 of 5 is 60%. A moot point since most work crews are actually understaffed anyway, not overstaffed; you go to work with the crew you have, not the crew you might want or wish to have at a later time.

    • Posted by MJ on May 27, 2015 at 7:31 pm

      The recession also proved that we do not need at least half of the inefficient public sector but of course no one can be let go. The recession also redundantly proved that most of you are not affordable but you don’t want to discuss that piece

      Reply

      • Posted by Tough Love on May 27, 2015 at 8:30 pm

        One of the BIGGEST impediment to real savings when mergers of several towns’ operations (e.g., Police) are considered are the artificial savings-killing “guidelines” put in place.

        EVERYONE in the Private Sector KNOWS that the vast majority of savings ALWAYS comes from headcount reductions as many many functions overlap and fewer bodies are needed once the operations are combined.

        In the several instances of NJ merger discussions of which I am aware, EVERY one (with the exception of the Montvale, NJ DPW merger with another town …. which resulted in layoffs) had one governing RULE without which the merger would not move forward ……. that being that nobody losses their job and headcounts decrease ONLY via voluntary terminations or retirement.

        Achieving REAL savings via Public Sector mergers when the WORKERS control the process, either directly (via necessary “negotiations”) or indirectly (via in-their-pocket Elected Officials) is a bad joke played on the Taxpayers.

        Reply

  6. No, society needs value adders and revenue producers – you know, farmers, miners and manufacturers. All of the rest is overhead, including “security”.

    Reply

    • Posted by Michael S Polish on May 26, 2015 at 7:29 pm

      Yes because when a riot occurs like in Baltimore you and your ilk would be able to stop it. Would that be before or after you had to change your pants ?Name one society that ever survived without security. Honestly can I use you as an example of the stupidity of the average private sector tool bag ? Everything you own would be taken by the animals of our society without people like me. Learn your place and say thank you.

      Reply

      • Posted by Anonymous on May 26, 2015 at 7:51 pm

        Why stop the riots–they will eventually tire and need sleep. In any event it appears your donut eating brethren aren’t doing much to control the murders in Baltimore recently. Apparently they are throwing a temper tantrum and not doing the job their bosses (taxpayers) hired them to do.

        Reply

      • Posted by Tough Love on May 26, 2015 at 7:57 pm

        Do you look in the mirror, smile, and pat yourself on the back for how great you truly are ?
        ——————————————————————————-
        Quoting ….”Learn your Place” ……. Uh-um, is that subservient to you ?

        While you “might” be appropriate for Corrections, you really should NOT be a Police Officer.

        Reply

        • Posted by Michael S Polish on May 26, 2015 at 8:17 pm

          Yes I do. It was instilled in me at Basic Training how lazy,fat and unmotivated the civilian population was and I took it with me from that point forward. Trust me when I tell you the average military person and law enforcement officer feels similar. We tolerate you,we don’t like you. I’ll allow you to get the last word in if you would like. I know that sort of thing is important to a guy like you.

          Reply

          • Posted by Anonymous on May 26, 2015 at 8:20 pm

            Wow–TL is right—you shouldn’t be a cop

          • Posted by Tough Love on May 26, 2015 at 8:23 pm

            I’m REALLY glad we have engaged in this discussion.

            NJ employers of Police Officers should look to SIGNIFICANTLY ramp up psychological testing of both new and CURRENT officers ….. you are the “Poster-Boy” for that need.

  7. Posted by Anonymous on May 26, 2015 at 8:21 pm

    TL is a genuine coward, she wont reveal her name. She is afraid to live in the greatest country on earth, yet she makes jokes about soldiers and police officers. She isnt the brightest crayon in the box.

    Reply

    • Posted by Tough Love on May 26, 2015 at 8:51 pm

      Smart, not cowardly.

      Now exact WHERE did I make “jokes” about about Police Officers and Soldiers ?

      Reply

  8. Posted by Anonymous on May 26, 2015 at 9:41 pm

    yeah you are right, you werent joking, you were serious when you said all those terrible things you said. I thought would give you the benefit of the doubt and say you were joking.

    Reply

    • Posted by Tough Love on May 26, 2015 at 9:46 pm

      Be specific … what “terrible” things did I say ( beyond Michael S Polish being “nutty” and having “issues” ….. my opinion of course) ?

      Reply

      • Posted by Tough Love on May 27, 2015 at 8:48 pm

        Polish actually said (referring to the Private Sector ) …… “We tolerate you,we don’t like you.”

        There is no way this guy should be in law enforcement.

        Reply

  9. Posted by Anonymous on May 26, 2015 at 10:10 pm

    Glad this commentary clarified the previous misinformation on those opposing DBP. Clearly, dismantling of State and Local Pensions is the GOP’s stepping stone to Federal, Military, and Social Security cutbacks. Get the message 99%?

    Reply

    • Posted by Tough Love on May 26, 2015 at 11:57 pm

      Or MORE LIKELY, ……… it ‘s nothing more than recognizing that COLLUSION between the Public Sector Unions and our Elected Officials are to blame for the pension-driven mess in which we now find ourselves (with the former BUYING the favorable votes of the later with campaign contributions and election support), with the Public Sector workers (via their grossly excessive, unnecessary, unjust, unfair, and unaffordable pensions) the “financial beneficiaries” of this Union/Politician collusion and self-dealing, and with the betrayed and beleaguered Taxpayers holding the bag.

      And …… RECOGNIZING that the workers are the financial beneficiaries of this collusion, THAT’S where the Taxpayers must rightfully look to right this wrong, by VERY materially reducing these grossly excessive pension & benefit “promises” ALL THE WAY DOWN to what similarly situated (in wages, age at retirement, and years of service) Private Sector workers typically receive in pensions & benefits from THEIR employers.

      EQUAL …. but not better.

      Reply

      • Posted by Anonymous on May 27, 2015 at 7:27 am

        OCD as another comment indicate? I wonder how many times you posted the last comment? I’m sure you know the number. Equal not better, so have we concluded this is for everyone no exceptions?

        Reply

    • Posted by Anonymous on May 27, 2015 at 11:43 am

      Social security needs to be reformed and i have no problem with that. Unlike public workers, I have planned my retirement with my own money (excluding SS/pension). Maybe public workers should stop asking others to fund their retirements. Save out of your paycheck.

      Reply

      • Posted by Tough Love on May 27, 2015 at 11:50 am

        Quoting …..”Maybe public workers should stop asking others to fund their retirements. ”

        Yes, they “SHOULD” …… but they WON’T without kicking and screaming.

        Reply

        • Posted by Anonymous on May 27, 2015 at 11:56 am

          I don’t know why they don’t want to take care of themselves. They act like children in need of constant mothering. I would imagine that they would say that if a pension was not offered, they would of never taken the job initially. I highly doubt that as it seems so many of them have their egos wrapped up in their guns and fire hoses.

          Reply

        • Posted by BH on May 27, 2015 at 2:46 pm

          For someone who has spent 20 years with bi weekly deductions coming out of their pay and invested in funds that they have no control over…. Saying now, sorry there is no pension is ludicrous.

          Reply

          • Posted by MJ on May 27, 2015 at 7:36 pm

            You should be demanding explanations as to why you did not have any control over your own contributions instead of blaming private taxpayers. We shouldn’t be held responsible for your overly generous over promised pensions if you are not responsible for demanding accountability for the politicians and unions abusing the system!

          • Posted by Tough Love on May 27, 2015 at 8:33 pm

            So you ARE are 20+ years service retired Police Officer or Fireman … right ?

          • Posted by BH on May 27, 2015 at 11:21 pm

            For someone= not me, isn’t that obvious? I would have said mine or my?? Jeesh!!

  10. Posted by Anonymous on May 27, 2015 at 8:52 am

    No significant reforms will happen. Military and police & fire supporters far outweigh the opposition. The minority supporters of such reforms hide in the shadows their voices only static in the background. .

    Reply

    • Posted by Tough Love on May 27, 2015 at 10:29 am

      Reality and the MATH always win in the end-game, and the money to pay the grossly excessive, unnecessary, unjust, unfair, and unaffordable “promised” Public Sector pensions & benefits never WAS there, isn’t there now, and never will be.

      It’s been nothing but a giant Ponzi scheme. and a false belief that FUTURE generations could always be forced to past the bill for PAST services. While that works in the beginning, and when the unjust shift of obligation is small, it’s doesn’t work forever (with that shift growing larger and larger) ….. and we’re crossing the critical point whereupon it must end.

      Reply

      • Posted by BH on May 27, 2015 at 2:48 pm

        You’re wrong again TL.

        Quoting,”grossly excessive, unnecessary, unjust, unfair, and unaffordable “promised” Public Sector pensions & benefits never WAS there, isn’t there now, and never will be.”
        Not grossly excessive. It’s the pay to perform the job negotiated in good faith.

        Reply

    • Posted by Anonymous on May 27, 2015 at 10:51 am

      Why do you have such a problem with equal not better?
      Apparently you don’t read the news as the military and police have been under intense scrutiny lately and are far from popular.

      Reply

    • Posted by BH on May 27, 2015 at 10:59 am

      I know that more private sector people support the safety professions than denounce it. It’s just the stupid few who are either failed test takers or jealous because they failed in life. It’s simply idiotic to imagine a world without police, fire or military. This era of stupidity will pass….

      Reply

      • Posted by Tough Love on May 27, 2015 at 12:06 pm

        We all “support” hard-working Police Officers ……. but that need not, should not, and (financially) cannot extend to the VAST “over-compensation” that is CURRENTLY in place in NJ and just about everywhere else.

        I demonstrated that NJ’s Police pensions are TYPICALLY 5.41 times greater in value at retirement that those of a similarly situated (in pay, age at retirement, and years of service) a few days age on this Blog. You can find it in one of the last comments here:

        https://burypensions.wordpress.com/2015/05/14/its-embarsaing-and-im-tired-of-hearing-this-i-want-what-i-was-promised/

        And, with Police often retiring around age 55, the Taxpayer are (for all but the newest hires) usually on the hook for free retiree healthcare, which for family coverage will likely cost the Taxpayers an ADDITIONAL $300,000 to $500,000. Why should the taxpayer pay for ANY of this cost when it is the rare Private Sector worker that gets ANY employer-sponsored retiree healthcare benefits any longer ?

        There is absolutely ZERO justification for this outrageous financial “mugging” of the Taxpayers.
        —————————————————————————

        Reply

        • Posted by MJ on May 27, 2015 at 1:56 pm

          Pensions should be reformed immediately and reduced to reflect the actuarial soundness as it exists today. Taxpayers don’t owe the publics a30-40 year overly generous retirement. The pensions were NEVER actuarial adjusted to reflect longer life spans, rising health care costs, Great Recession etc. weren’t designed to support people for 30+ years

          Reply

          • I call it the Grandfather/Father/Son scam. Grandfather firefighter has been retired for 25 years on his boat, Father just retired and is in process of buying his boat and Son just started as a newly trained firefighter to keep the family legacy going. There you have it: three on the payroll for one active employee. What is wrong with any of that from an economic perspective?

          • Posted by BH on May 27, 2015 at 4:17 pm

            PSDrone,
            Your comment is useless and makes literally no sense whatsoever.
            Those occupations do tend to have a family legacy attached. But they should be celebrated not chastised. These professions carry a great honor. Lives are lost and saved. It’s a close brotherhood.
            It’s 3 separate careers….
            I could try to explain….. But obviously some people just don’t get it and never will.
            Oh well. Thank god for the ones that do. And rather than belittling these hard workers…. We should thank them

          • Posted by Tough Love on May 27, 2015 at 8:39 pm

            Qouting BH ….”But they should be celebrated not chastised. These professions carry a great honor. Lives are lost and saved. It’s a close brotherhood”

            All true ….. but that does NOT in any way justify the vast over-compensation in place for decades, and robbing Private Sector Taxpayers of THEIR chance for a secure retirement.

    • Posted by MJ on May 27, 2015 at 7:37 pm

      This will only hasten the demise! You do realize that right ??

      Reply

  11. Posted by MJ on May 27, 2015 at 2:34 pm

    Everything is wrong with it. The son’s meager contributions are paying for the still collecting grandfather. Taxpayers pay once for the working years, a second time for their retirement and a third time for their after retirement public job. And you ask how this is economically sustainable. Ha ha ha ha

    Reply

    • Posted by Anonymous on May 27, 2015 at 4:41 pm

      Tick tock tick tock, soon we all shall see.

      Governor on to bigger and better things, God bless him & this Country if they materialize. We’re going to need it and then some.

      Supreme Court decision looming. It will only provide leverage for negotiations. Democrats don’t have override so any funding/reforms will probably stall for now.

      No significant movement will occur without reform and tax concessions from both sides.

      The clock continues to run jepordizing the State’s credit worthiness, pension funds viability, and taxpayer’s exposure.

      Reply

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s

%d bloggers like this: