Christie Lies Update

2014 New Jersey pension actuarial reports are coming out on the state website (the CAFR is on there now) which is a different set of lies that I will expose when all the reports are out.

For now the headline numbers updated through June 30, 2014 are 42.5% funded with a shortfall of $113 billion though, for $1,307,431 in actuarial fees you would think that someone could have added up those numbers up for you.  Instead they have an exhibit showing $83,482,447,070  in assets and one for an unfunded totaling $113,125,550,300 that you need to total yourself and then add those two numbers to get an accrued liability of $196,607,997,380.  Then you take the $83,382,447,080 in assets and divide it by the $196,507,997,380 of liabilities to get to 42.5% funding.*

Even after you do that those numbers are rosy but that is for a future blog.  For now there are more transparent lies being thrown out there:


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Full youtube of that exchange here (note at 9:05 for another obvious lie that some of you may pick up on):
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* This is for the benefit of the media and most people reading this report since I do not think they would easily find that $113 billion unfunded number or understand the 42.5% number otherwise

90 responses to this post.

  1. Posted by Anonymous on April 17, 2015 at 8:14 pm

    lying a hole, i can pay my mortgage, its not my fault if I had the money I would pay.

    Reply

  2. Posted by Tough Love on April 17, 2015 at 10:15 pm

    Re the 2-nd (long video) ………… while I have know idea if the few points noted as lies (in the 1-st video are lies or not …. and very foolish on Christie’s part if he knowingly lied), my overall reaction to that long video is that Christie was being very honest and forthcoming about the problems and lack of ANY not-very-painful solution.

    As he said …. we simply don’t have the money to fund the promised pensions, AND when the money (Plan assets) runs out, payments will basically stop.
    ————————————————————————————–

    Reply

    • That video was full of lies and it is becoming clear that it is because Christie is at a stage where he can only believe what he wants regardless of facts.

      He is right about the massive willful underfundings but someone should pipe up and ask where he was during that period. Before he was an active participant he was blissfully unaware and this ignorance makes him unequipped to explain or grasp the real problem, much less fix it.

      Reply

      • Posted by Tough Love on April 17, 2015 at 10:57 pm

        I believe (in addition to the a lack of non-painful solutions) the biggest immediate problem is Christie’s presidential bid-in-the-making…. taking 90% of his time.

        But even if 100% of his efforts WERE concentrated here, w/o material givebacks from the Unions, we’re at a standstill. The trouble is that “standstills” are a REALLY bad idea now, as the pension/benefit doomsday clock is nearing midnight.

        Reply

  3. Posted by Anonymous on April 18, 2015 at 12:03 am

    Christie is a boldfaced liar and TL believes his lies. Its just that simple

    Reply

  4. Posted by George on April 18, 2015 at 2:07 am

    “9:05 for another obvious lie”

    Is the lie everyone promised a pension got a pension, or if the state runs out of money it will not pay and not be able to raise taxes.

    Reply

    • Posted by S Moderation Douglas on April 18, 2015 at 1:34 pm

      “Not one person got one nickle less than they were promised.”

      (COLA)

      Reply

      • Posted by Tough Love on April 18, 2015 at 1:42 pm

        “promises”, made in collusion that bind a 3-rd party (whose interests were betrayed) as payer are not enforceable.

        Reply

  5. Posted by Anonymous on April 18, 2015 at 3:38 am

    Christie is nothing more than a courtroom lawyer. He feels he can lie as often as he would like with absolutely no repercussions.

    Reply

  6. Posted by Anonymous on April 18, 2015 at 3:46 am

    how about we reduce insurance plan to gold, added to the already take back of COLAs and raise in employee contribution rate, PLUS , raise taxes and sell state property. All of the above will share the pain! Instead of doing it all on the backs of public employees.

    Reply

    • Posted by Anonymous on April 18, 2015 at 8:29 am

      That’s the kind of compromise “shared sacrifice” the so called leaders s/b talking about?

      Reply

      • Posted by Anonymous on April 18, 2015 at 8:36 am

        BTW they’re a little late on their CAFR posting, guess no Certificate of Achievement next year?

        Reply

    • Posted by Tough Love on April 18, 2015 at 11:00 am

      BOTH pension & benefits for all current workers need to be reduced ALL the way down to o a level EQUAL TO but no greater than what reasonably comparable Private Sector Taxpayers get from their employers.

      Got a problem with EQUAL ?

      Reply

      • Ok then give PWs the same thing folks in private sector get.

        Vision Plan
        Adoption Plan
        Legal Plan
        Vacation days they get to chose (teachers) when they take.
        Stock options
        Bonuses
        Life insurance policies
        Ability to go out for lunch (instead of the 20 min teachers get)
        etc.
        etc.

        Got a problem with EQUAL?

        Reply

        • Posted by Tough Love on April 20, 2015 at 2:06 am

          Few get most of that (and VERY few get stock options).

          And, since your a teacher ……….. how about working the summer for no additional pay. Private Sector workers don’t get the summer off.

          Next up, TENURE. You know you got to give that up.

          Shall we go on ?

          Reply

    • Posted by dentss dunnigan on April 18, 2015 at 2:46 pm

      You don’t sell assets that belong to all the people ,just to satisfy a few .

      Reply

      • Posted by Tough Love on April 18, 2015 at 10:44 pm

        Correct.

        Reply

      • You don’t use the pensions of a few to balance the budget of many.

        Reply

        • Posted by Tough Love on April 20, 2015 at 2:02 am

          We sure SHOULD (and hopefully WILL) because your promised pensions and benefits) are grossly excessive and a direct result of collusion between your Unions and our Elected Officials whose favorable votes (on Public Sector pay, pensions, and benefits) were BOUGHT with Public Sector Union campaign contributions and election support.

          Reply

  7. Posted by Anonymous on April 18, 2015 at 12:16 pm

    taxes for millionaires should be raised to 22=28 percent, got a problem with equal

    Reply

    • Posted by Tough Love on April 18, 2015 at 1:35 pm

      Not at all,as long as all Public Sector pensions & benefits for all CURRENT workers are reduced ALL the way down to a level EQUAL TO but no greater than what reasonably comparable Private Sector Taxpayers get from their employers….. and factoring in BOTH the MUCH richer “formulas” AND the MUCH more generous “provisions”.

      P.S ……. expect a 50-75% reduction in your pensions and a 90% reduction in your retiree healthcare benefits.

      Reply

      • Posted by dentss dunnigan on April 18, 2015 at 2:48 pm

        Income taxes are were enacted for property tax relief to fund schools .

        Reply

      • So a public worker paying 8500 a year in healthcare is not enough for you?

        Reply

        • Posted by Tough Love on April 20, 2015 at 1:55 am

          That’s high for an active worker. Which NJ Public Sector workers pay that amount?

          For retiree family coverage, not it’s NOT enough, because Private Sector retirees rarely get ANY employer-sponsored subsidy any longer …. and Taxpayers should pay no more towards Public Sector retiree healthcare coverage than what we get from our employers.

          Reply

          • Posted by BH on April 20, 2015 at 3:56 pm

            ALL!!!!!
            post chapter 78

          • Posted by BH on April 20, 2015 at 3:58 pm

            You mean to tell me AFTER ALL your countless posts about equal and fair…..
            YOU!! Of all people did NOT know that??????
            All I can say is….. It figures!!!!!!

  8. Posted by Anonymous on April 18, 2015 at 12:33 pm

    http://www.cnbc.com/id/102341748 Hey TL got a problem with fair!!!! why dont you pay your fair share of taxes, jerk!

    Reply

    • Posted by Tough Love on April 18, 2015 at 1:39 pm

      Read my above reply to YOUR earlier comment just above.

      SO let’s get moving …. cut those pensions & ebnefits TODAY, and raise the tax rates as you noted, also TODAY.

      —————————-

      Are you working on that Plan “B” when (not if, per Gov. Christie) your Plan fails and the checks stop ?

      Reply

  9. Posted by S Moderation Douglas on April 18, 2015 at 2:45 pm

    “Platinum healthcare plans” in New Jersey?

    $31,000 a year for healthcare?

    Last I heard, CalPERS was $12,000-$14,000 a year. That’s the max for family coverage, about $5,000 for single coverage.

    What do you get for $30,000?

    Calpers has some policies subject to “Cadillac” penalties, but much of the premium is paid by the employee.

    There are, I understand, some safety worker who have higher healthcare benefits, they also have higher “Cadillac” threshholds.

    Reply

    • Posted by Tough Love on April 18, 2015 at 10:49 pm

      $31K is likely accurate for (retiree) family cover. I am familiar with retiree family coverage for large Corporate self-insured Plans (i.e., no profit component or “risk charge”) and the total Plan cost is just about $25K for coverage a lot less rich than what NJ’s retirees get.

      Reply

      • Posted by PatB on April 19, 2015 at 12:30 pm

        Q- What % of retirees get family (spouse and children) coverage? I’m sure a few, given that people are having children later, but I would think that the great majority of retirees would have grown children. Seems to me that this is disingenuously cherry picking the highest dollar amount to piss off the public.

        Reply

        • Posted by S Moderation Douglas on April 19, 2015 at 1:01 pm

          Seems wrong. We all know Christie is a serial liar.

          IF…..he’s talking about present coverage plus the value of earned retiree coverage….. $30,000 average still sounds high.

          Anybody know how much NJ actually pays?
          ……………….
          I’ve been wrong before. When Walker was fighting Wisconsin unions, it was reported insurance was $20,000 year (WAY higher than CalPERS). I thought that was bogus. Then we found out the union owned the insurance company (and the benefits were very generous)

          Why does this matter? When you compare public to private compensation, those lowest level state workers making $31,000 a year, …….IF they actually have $31,000 healthcare, will show as much as “50% higher total compensation” than the private sector.

          If Christie is not just bloviating again, this would be a good place to save money. I wonder if this isn’t just a huge ripoff by the insurance companies.

          Reply

          • Posted by Tough Love on April 19, 2015 at 5:44 pm

            There is no way to provide generous family coverage to a family for $12K in total cost. Here’s my (very educated) guess) where the $12K comes from ……

            Unlike in the Private Sector, where they make the retiree pay for all or most of the “cost”, that “cost” is specifically for the pool of “retirees” and does not lump both actives and retirees together into one pool and cite an “average” family cost.

            I’d bet Calif. is doing the latter (to make the costs look far lower than they really are).

        • Posted by Tough Love on April 19, 2015 at 7:49 pm

          For many Plans, “Family” coverage means simply more than one person…… although some Plans have 3 categories, individual, 2-people, and more than 2 people.

          The REALLY costly (and hence abusive to the Taxpayers who RARELY get such benefits) Public Sector retiree healthcare costs are for those not covered by Medicare.

          That’s where the $31K annual Family coverage retiree healthcare costs come into play.

          Reply

  10. Posted by S Moderation Douglas on April 19, 2015 at 8:58 pm

    Seriously, are there any state workers following who know how much the state actually pays, instead of just fabricating numbers?

    CC Paraphrase: ” You’re getting platinum healthcare, and you’re paying nothing for it…….d’oh….you’re paying $5,000 for platinum coverage…. $31,500…..average.

    AND the state will have to pay $750 million excise tax on Cadillac plans.

    ACA’s Cadillac Tax is a 40% excise tax on high end plans above $10,200 for individuals and $27,500 for family coverage starting in 2018.

    Average monthly premium for family healthcare in NJ is $1,561 ($18,732 year ?) Nowhere near $25K. Also nowhere near $31k. And the average worker apparently pays about $4 to $5k of that?

    http://www.njspotlight.com/stories/14/11/18/analysis-nj-public-employees-pay-high-percentage-of-healthcare-costs/
    ………………………..

    In California, there are apparently a few policies which exceed Cadillac limits; the state still pays only about $1,200 a month, and the employee pays the balance, but CalPERS is still liable for 40% tax on the amount over $27,500, even though they only pay about half that in premiums.
    .
    What is Chris Christie talking about?

    Reply

    • Posted by Tough Love on April 19, 2015 at 9:59 pm

      I guess you’re not listening …

      Quoting ,,,”Average monthly premium for family healthcare in NJ is $1,561 ($18,732 year ?) Nowhere near $25K. Also nowhere near $31k. And the average worker apparently pays about $4 to $5k of that?”

      That “average” is either for the family coverage of “active” workers or the family coverage of both “active & retired” workers.

      Claim costs increase faster than linearly with increasing age, so the actual claim costs of family coverage just for the (non-Medicare-covered) RETIREE group will be much higher than that $18K “average” (that average being brought down by the inclusion of the younger/healthier “actives”).

      And, the Excise Tax on “Cadillac” coverage applies ONLY to the RETIREE group (separately measured)..

      Reply

  11. Posted by S Moderation Douglas on April 19, 2015 at 10:54 pm

    Unbelievable, literally.

    Reply

    • Posted by Tough Love on April 20, 2015 at 12:27 am

      So can we take that to mean that if it is indeed true, then what NJ’s taxpayers pay for retiree healthcare is indeed so outrageous, that we are indeed justified in very materially reducing such benefits, as called for by NJ’s pension Commission………. in your “moderate” opinion of course ?

      Reply

  12. Posted by S Moderation Douglas on April 20, 2015 at 3:11 am

    Easy solution.

    “the theory behind the Cadillac tax was not only that it would drive down health premium costs in collective bargaining, but also that it would push up wages as employers gave their workers pay hikes to make up for the higher out-of-pocket health care costs they would incur as a result of receiving less-inclusive healthcare policies.”

    “In fact, of the $200 billion projected by the Obama administration to be generated over the first 10 years from the Cadillac tax provision, only $58 billion was expected to be paid in excise healthcare taxes, with the other $142 billion projected to be generated in the form of higher federal taxes paid on the wage increases workers were expected to get.”

    Reduce health benefits………increase wages. Win/win.

    Seriously, it’s just Christie being Christie. Make the employees look guilty (“it’s not me saying that, Obama says you have a Cadillac health plan”)

    He has a wide range of numbers he can quote at will with plausible deniability.
    …………………………..
    http://www.njspotlight.com/stories/14/07/30/christie-cites-cadillac-tax-in-push-to-cut-public-employee-benefits/
    ……………………………
    “The governor’s office and the Treasury Department failed to respond to repeated requests for an explanation of Christie’s numbers.”

    In other words, “$31,500…….average………” Is just more CC BS.

    Reply

  13. Why don’t the publics just pay half for a basic plan much as they do in the private sector. If they want a buy up the publics can pay for it themselves. I’m still wondering why the taxpayers are responsible for the publics health benefits and retirements at all? How about we all pay for our own families, health benefits, retirements, etc.

    Reply

    • Posted by Tough Love on April 20, 2015 at 10:03 am

      Private Sector retirees would be tickled-pink to get “half” the cost of their healthcare paid for via employer-sponsored Retiree healthcare Plans …. for which the Vast majority get NOTHING.

      Private Sector workers must rely on Medicare, starting at 65 and pay a premium + 20% coinsurance.

      Taxpayer should fund and EQUAL benefit, but no more.

      Reply

  14. Posted by BH on April 20, 2015 at 1:13 pm

    You again fail to recognize the difference between local and state workers.
    State workers get free healthcare into retirement. This was a deal made many years ago. Chapter78 made changes to how healthcare premiums are paid. The state plans are in trouble. Bottom line. But they are in this problem because of mishandling the funds for decades. I agree there needs to be drastic changes.
    But where you haters and jealous “equal” wannabes lose me is with regards to the local plans. These plans, but pension and benefits are paid by the employee and employer at the municipal level. If you live in Elizabeth Nj, your taxes pay for local police and fire. And if you take a look here, this is what it actually costs that tax payer in THAT municipality. Using Elizabeth as an example. Tax payers pay $2.24 per day for fire and end coverage 24/7/365. http://firefighterfactsnj.org/property-taxes-for-your-town/?town=elizabeth-city
    Look up your town for an education.
    So, since we NOW know for a cup of coffee, we are covered 24/7/365 for both fire and ems, regardless of their salaries or manpower. If you can question this amount as excessive or unfair I suggest you think of this cup of coffee the next time your trapped in a burning building or suffering a heart attack. Get over it!!!

    Healthcare- yes, it’s a burden for us all. Some have great coverage for premium cost, others have none. Police, fire and ems deserve premium coverage!! Anyone who claims their jobs are just as difficult as anyone’s is clearly simply jealous or just stupid, which from the posts is clearly a big majority of the later. I won’t needlessly get into the how’s and whys, but I will explain that the healthcare for police and fire is not free!!! Chapter 78 requires all active members as of July 2010 to pay 35% of the premium paid directly to the municipality to be used to offset any tax increases. This is fact!!! So when people say words like, free, equal and excessive- I suggest you get an education because 35% is not free or excessive. But I doubt it’s equal as many in the private sector don’t pay that much. Now, state employees once again are different. Local public employees pay this INTO RETIREMENT as well. There is no FREE HEALTHCARE ANYMORE!!!!

    Local pensions differ as well. When the actuaries release 2014 numbers, the PFRS will be well into 80+% funded!!!
    My point is…. Get educated on the facts….. Learn the numbers…. And understand the difference between local vs. state!!!

    Reply

    • Posted by Tough Love on April 20, 2015 at 2:19 pm

      FYI, in most NJ town, Fire services are via volunteers.

      You keep trying to make the readers believe that the LOCAL pension & benefits are “OK”. they’re not. Here are the (VERY POOR) Local Pension Plan funding ratios (as of 6/30/14) under the new GASB accounting guidelines:

      LOCAL PERS …. 65.81% funded
      LOCAL PFRS …. 67.60% funded

      It’s as if you had only paid 2/3 of you home mortgage payments DUE IN PAST MONTHS…. and this accumulating debt is growing at 7.9% interest (per NJ Plan assumptions).

      BS all you want (clearly driven by self-interest, as you stated that several of your family member are Public Sector workers) but these are in extremely poor condition. That they are in less-poor condition than State plans does not diminish the need for major reduction to the pensions & benefits of LOCAL Plans.
      —————————————————————————–

      And there you go being sneaky again…..

      Quoting … “Chapter 78 requires all active members as of July 2010 to pay 35% of the premium paid directly to the municipality to be used to offset any tax increases. ”

      The healthcare mess is centered on RETIREE Healthcare. Yea, “actives” are finally paying something. Police RETIREES are NOT, and with VERY FEW Private Sectors getting ANY retiree healthcare subsidy today, THAT’S what Public Sector retirees should get in subsidies from the taxpayers …. NOTHING.

      You’re NOT “special” and deserving of a better deal on the Taxpayers’ dime.

      Reply

      • Posted by BH on April 20, 2015 at 3:12 pm

        Sneaky??? How dare you!!! You mix fact with fantasy. You spew inaccurate venom. You get you information from outdated and often misaligned locations!!!! You call me sneaky???
        Every word I’ve posted is 100% fact backed up with information I can provide directly from the state of nj.
        The healthcare mess is centered on healthcare!! Period!!!!
        Retired or not!!!! How is it a local employees fault that horizon is ALLOWED to charge such high premiums??? Why are you not jumping down their throats??
        Active employees pay 35% and will into retirement. Anyone prior to that did not!!! Isn’t that why we are all up in arms about it!??? Well guess what… You got what you wanted!! FROM JULY 2010 every local employee who retires will also pay 35% into retirement. Those fortunate enough to get free healthcare or no longer billing for a family plan. Most likely a couple plan. Many are now dead or soon will be!!! So, let’s freak out about the few lucky ones who got it for free???? Your argument is stupid!!!! Your facts are wrong and frankly… You are a repetitive bore!
        Now what???

        Reply

      • Posted by BH on April 20, 2015 at 3:38 pm

        Local PFRS will be well over 80% funded!! Watch and wait.
        And that will trigger a reinstatement of COLA!!!!
        Thank goodness our wise legislature had the foresight to add that little nugget in there !!!

        Reply

  15. Posted by BH on April 20, 2015 at 1:23 pm

    Also, for a premium top of the line family health plan provided by the state health benefits it is $24,312. So the local employee pats about $8500 per year for that plan. But YOU ARE NOT PAYING THE DIFFERENCE!!! The municipality is.
    But again, what you need to realize is that while there are about 12 plans to choose from, as an employee… You have no choice other than the 12 plans. Some of you make it sound like the public workers are greedy and have premium healthcare by their choice. It’s all they are offered!!! If you chose to opt out of the healthcare, you’re on your own to get coverage.
    Hope my posts are starting to educate those of you who preach equal and fair. Make their jobs just as safe as ours and we can start to discuss EQUAL AND FAIR. But since the riskiest part of most of our private sector days is the commute and scolding hot coffee, I doubt we will ever be equal.
    Pay these people their locally deserved pensions and healthcare!!!!!!

    Reply

    • Posted by Tough Love on April 20, 2015 at 2:27 pm

      This one is perhaps your most ridiculous comment…….

      Quoting …..”Also, for a premium top of the line family health plan provided by the state health benefits it is $24,312. So the local employee pats about $8500 per year for that plan. But YOU ARE NOT PAYING THE DIFFERENCE!!! The municipality is.”

      I’m guessing the $24,312 is for “actives” with premium sharing (not for retirees), but putting that aside, I just loved where you stated re the $24,312-$8,500=$15,812 …. “YOU ARE NOT PAYING THE DIFFERENCE!!! The municipality is.”

      And who is “the municipality” ? Is it not the Municipality’s TAXPAYERS that are paying the $15,812 ?
      ———————————————————————————————

      Reply

      • Posted by BH on April 20, 2015 at 2:58 pm

        Boy, you are a tough one…. No wondering where you come up with your name. Jeesh!!!! Get over yourself already. It’s boring.
        For the others….
        My point is, it’s the municipality of the employee in question.
        TL…. In your world called, communismopolis, there’s a town called jealousville where in fact, you! Reside. It is the local employees of said town you have ANY right commenting on when talking about “local” public employees. You pay taxes.. For your overly compensated “job”, (let’s call it a job, because you clearly do not “work”), you pay taxes to the municipality. From that, they pay public workers of that municipality. Not to equalcity or fairtown, but to jealousville. So, you have a right to complain about your employees of jealousville only.

        This is the divide of state and local pensions!! We can all complain about State stuff because we all live and pay that state. But we don’t all live in every municipality do we??? Stick to your own town when discussing local pension and benefits!!!!
        Get it??

        Reply

        • Posted by Tough Love on April 20, 2015 at 3:11 pm

          No BH, I’m not a tough one. I am just very knowledgeable and can’t be BShitted. And no, it’s not jealousy, it’s fairness. As I stated before, you’re not “special”.

          I laugh that you believe you are educating others ….. certainly not those looking for a good/knowledgeable teacher.
          —————————————————————-
          Quoting …. “Stick to your own town when discussing local pension and benefits!!!!”

          Teachers are Local to each town. But their pensions and retiree healthcare are legal financial obligations of the “State” …. which is now looking to foist them upon the Localities to become THEIR obligation. So It’s not so cut and dry.

          In addition, even though the pensions and retiree healthcare benefits of Local Workers are “theoretically” determined by the Locality, try telling the Local (over-compensated) Safety workers that the town has decided to only offer half the pension going forward. Do you really believe THAT to be an option of the Locality ?

          Reply

          • Posted by BH on April 20, 2015 at 3:15 pm

            You cannot be correct and just if you keep saying Police AND Teachers!!! They are two clear distinct professions with two sets of rules with regards to their respective pensions and benefits. So much so that they also have two separate and distinct pension funds named two distinct things….. Divided again by local and state. Until you understand and speak about the differences, you are not speaking accurate and anything you say will continue to be viewed as propaganda and lies.

          • Posted by BH on April 20, 2015 at 3:19 pm

            And just to really get you pissed….. Guess what?

            None of this pension freeze will ever pass the assembly. It won’t even get on the ballot NEXT year!!
            Nobody cares!! People leave the state, more move in.
            Your buddy Chris Chrispy is far too busy taking his NJ reforms to the nation. He’s taking your social security, Medicare and Medicaid right from under your nose!!!
            Oh boy, I can’t wait to see the hypocritical reactions many of you on here have when he starts dipping into your pockets after YOU paid into something for half your life!!!! Oh the irony!!!

  16. Posted by fouls123 on April 20, 2015 at 1:44 pm

    Healthcare is not free for most state retirees either now.

    Reply

    • Posted by BH on April 20, 2015 at 1:50 pm

      Chapter 78 correct?

      Reply

      • Posted by fouls123 on April 20, 2015 at 2:24 pm

        Yes, in part, but healthcare for state workers hasn’t been free for anyone who began working after 1976 and has gone up more for later workers including the most recent chapter 78 law. Most of the stements about state retiree benefits on here are made by the ignoorant who do not know what they are talking about. They make assumptions without ever checking their facts. Many of these people just have an axe to grind.

        Reply

        • Posted by Tough Love on April 20, 2015 at 2:32 pm

          Let’s put you on the record.

          What % of the healthcare premium is paid by (25-year service) Police and teacher “RETIREES” both before and after the recent chapter 78 Law ?

          Reply

          • Posted by BH on April 20, 2015 at 3:04 pm

            I already discussed healthcare premiums for AFTER chapter 78 in my post… Did I not?? And there you go again mixing two very different entities. You cannot be correct and just if you keep saying Police AND Teachers!!! They are two clear distinct professions with two sets of rules with regards to their respective pensions and benefits. So much so that they also have two separate and distinct pension funds named two distinct things….. Divided again by local and state. Until you understand and speak about the differences, you are not speaking accurate and anything you say will continue to be viewed as propaganda and lies.

          • Posted by Tough Love on April 20, 2015 at 3:20 pm

            BH, In case you didn’t notice, my comment was directed to “fouls 123”, not to you. However you are welcome to provide an answer …….. a direct answer simply giving 4 percentages for RETIREE-paid healthcare premiums (Police/Teachers and before/after 78Law) …….. not a lot of meaningless commentary.

          • Posted by BH on April 20, 2015 at 3:35 pm

            Post-Chapter 78
            ANYONE IN THE STATE HEALTH BENIFIT SYSTEM WILL PAY-
            35% of the ever increasing premium while employed and then into retirement!!!

            What else really matters?
            But-
            Those pre chapter 78 are 0% but most are either dead, dying or no longer paying the high premium for a family plan. Most are widowed and may have a single plan or maybe a couples plan at best. And at age 65 Medicaid takes over as primary. So again….. What’s the answer that’s acceptable …. to YOU??????

            Go call horizon or Aetna and ask why the premiums go up 26% per year.
            Go ask that retired widowed cop living on a $15,000 year pension in the most expensive state why he gets free healthcare!!
            Go do something better with your obvious abundance of time that will actually make a difference.

          • Posted by Tough Love on April 20, 2015 at 3:58 pm

            Quoting ….. “ANYONE IN THE STATE HEALTH BENIFIT SYSTEM WILL PAY-
            35% of the ever increasing premium while employed and then into retirement!!!”

            Sorry for not trusting you, but does the above apply SPECIFICALLY TO (25-year Service) Police and Teacher retirees who retired:

            (a) Before implementation of PL 78, and
            (b) After implementation of PL 78
            ——————————————————————

            Woophs ………….. look like you did answer part of that ….. that the premium is ZERO for those who retired pre-PL-78 ….. as I believed.

            But then …. incredibly, you stated …. “Those pre chapter 78 are 0% but most are either dead, dying or no longer paying the high premium for a family plan.”

            Sorry, but I’d bet that there are many thousands of Pre-78 retirees with family coverage, and that it will remain as such for decades to come….. age great cost to the taxpayers.

            It shouldn’t. It should end today with ZERO subsidy, just like Private Sector taxpayers get from their employers.

            You’re NOT “special” on the taxpayers’ dime.
            ——————————————————————————————————–

            My “acceptable” answer is EQUAL, but NOT better. Got a problem with EQUAL ?

          • Posted by BH on April 20, 2015 at 4:13 pm

            You’re dream of equal and fair went out the window long ago. It’s now survival of the fittest. It’s not any one groups fault that the other is lagging. You should be advocating for the private sector by doing something productive FOR them rather than just taking from the other side. It won’t happen and you’re wasting your talent. Sure, there will be reforms. But you will feel the squeeze as well. It simply can’t and won’t be done any other way.
            Go out and advocate for private sector reforms.
            Go out and reach the healthcare insurance providers and question them on the ever increasing premiums. Reform tort laws
            Go out and ask your governor who is now last by the way in the republican polls, why he spends 1/3 of his time on his own agendas and not here.
            Go out buy a mirror and ask yourself,,, self,,,, why did I not take a public sector job and instead chose this lavish life of luxury and financial freedom which entitles me to speak on those pesants pensions and post it here on some blog.
            Go…. Go do that!!

          • Posted by Tough Love on April 20, 2015 at 4:31 pm

            Quoting … “fair went out the window long ago. It’s now survival of the fittest.”

            Well BH, we finally got there and you admit it …. you’re not satisfied with EQUAL, you want MORE, and you want the Taxpayers to pay for it.

            Greedy little man, aren’t you ?

          • Posted by BH on April 20, 2015 at 4:46 pm

            No. Not more. Never once typed the word MORE. They should get only what was promised. Nothing more. Nothing less. Only that. Greedy?? I’d say no, honestly.
            But I’m glad to see I’m getting a rise out of you.

  17. Posted by Anonymous on April 20, 2015 at 2:00 pm

    FYI, all NJ public employee health care costs are public record: http://www.state.nj.us/treasury/pensions/hb-percentage-home.shtml , comes with a
    nifty calculator for plugging in your own numbers.

    Reply

  18. Posted by S Moderation Douglas on April 20, 2015 at 4:04 pm

    The name of the game today is “Christie lies”

    “You get platinum healthcare, that’s not the Republican governor saying that. That’s the Democrat president saying you get Cadillac coverage; $31,500………..average. AND you pay nothing……pause…..you pay $5,000??

    I say CC is lying. Apparently there are a few who actually get $31,500, but it is nowhere close to average for working or retired. And his lies are intentional to paint New Jersey workers as greedy and selfish.

    Why does anyone listen to this clown?

    Reply

    • Posted by BH on April 20, 2015 at 4:26 pm

      Because frankly, most are merely meat with eyes!!! It’s the same reason cults and religious sects have such massive followers!!! People just believe what they hear. Luckily, though… We have a BS meter and it often alarms us …but….far too late in the game.
      The state health benefits system pays $23,000 and change for the premium top choice healthcare. But post chapter 78, all employees pay 35% of the increasing premium while active and into retirement. So it’s like $8500 a year. There are around one dozen plans an employee may select. Some have higher deductibles, copays,,blah blah blah. But the premium is literally peanuts in cost difference. Most opt for the high end plans.
      Let’s not forget that many public sector unions also had their pension contributions increased as well.
      All said and done, chapter 78 in 2011 cost the employee on average $12,000 per year.
      It was a reform that Chris Chrispy claims is a victory on his campaign to the whitehouse, but failed to follow his own law. A nj judge ordered him to follow his law and to pay into the pension. He is appealing to the Supreme Court.
      This guy is a liar and a shame. He did nor does nothing for the state. We are literally last in every poll or stat static since his reign. He favors the elite and had the audacity to claim he does not make much money. Luckily, here in NJ he is the bottom of all polls. He’s a joke and a punchline that will end his political career making the sate broke with his shady Exxon deals and payments to campaign contributors.

      Reply

      • Posted by Tough Love on April 20, 2015 at 4:45 pm

        BH, there you go again…….. how hard is to to write a sentence that is not misleading?

        Quoting ,,,”The state health benefits system pays $23,000 and change for the premium top choice healthcare. But post chapter 78, all employees pay 35% of the increasing premium while active and into retirement. So it’s like $8500 a year.”

        Shouldn’t the 2-nd of those 3 sentences really say …… “But post chapter 78, all employees HIRED AFTER CHAPTER 78’s EFFECTIVE DATE pay 35% of the increasing premium while active and into retirement. ?

        Reply

  19. Posted by BH on April 20, 2015 at 4:55 pm

    NO,,Because that would be a lie, TL!!!

    And I’m beginning to see a trend here. That being…. You are not as informed as you let others believe!! You really just like to stir the pot. Just like Chrispy.

    All current employees PAY 35% into healthcare. All, not some TL. Not just new hires or anyone hired post chapter 78!!!!!! All employees pay 35% of the healthcare premium. ANYONE COLLECTING A CHECK THAT IS A STATE EMPLOYEE PAYS 35% of the healthcare premium.
    It was a 4 year phase in. Post chapter 78, it was like 5%,17%, 27%,35% at year 4. This law started in 2011. So we are now at the year 4 phase in. 35%

    So now what???

    Reply

    • Posted by Tough Love on April 20, 2015 at 5:23 pm

      While your response is STILL misleading, mine (above) did not say what I have intended.

      What I was trying to point out the that those who retired before the effective date of PL 78 do NOT pay the 35% (of which Police and teachers with 25 years of service paying ZERO)……. and you repeatedly go to extreme lengths to omit that VERY IMPORTANT fact (AGAIN doing so above).

      Reply

    • BH, I thought that all state and local employees (teachers, police, municipal, etc) paid a % of their salary towards the health care not % of the premium?

      Reply

  20. Posted by Anonymous on April 20, 2015 at 5:39 pm

    Hate to say it, but that $30k+ cost for retiree health costs is close to the truth. I found the current full cost table, page down to the retired group medical plan rates.

    http://www.state.nj.us/treasury/pensions/hb-retired.shtml

    A question would be if the current co-pays for active employees would apply when they retire.

    Reply

    • Posted by BH on April 20, 2015 at 6:45 pm

      Sure! If $23,000 is close to $31,000. Then yeah…. It is.
      But if you’re comparing NJ to California, I’m sure you’d figure in how expensive it is here in jersey. And, again. Remember!! The members don’t control the premiums. The healthcare insurance companies do…. And.. There are only so many plans to chose from….. And.., this only applies to the state health plans. Local employers can shop around. It’s up the the municipality to decide what healthcare it’s members use. Not the members.
      In either case, chapter 78 says you still pay 35% of the premium active and into retirement. Everyone!!!

      Reply

      • Posted by Tough Love on April 20, 2015 at 7:01 pm

        Quoting …. “Sure! If $23,000 is close to $31,000. Then yeah…. It is.”

        No turkey. Go to the link.

        NJ AETNA Freedom 10 Plan (non-Medicare Family Coverage). 2015 cost:

        State Retirees ….. Monthly Cost = $2,848.68 …. $34,184.16 annually

        Teachers …………..Monthly Cost = $2,597.73 …. $31,172.76 annually

        Other Local ……… Monthly Cost = $3,044.83 …. $36,537.96 annually

        ——————————————————————————————
        BS & excuses …. BS & excuses …. BS & excuses …. BS & excuses ….

        Greedy little man.

        Taxpayers should contribute the SAME $$$ towards Public Sector Retiree Healthcare costs as THEY get from their employers …. usually NOTHING.

        Reply

      • Posted by Tough Love on April 20, 2015 at 7:34 pm

        Quoting ,,,, “In either case, chapter 78 says you still pay 35% of the premium active and into retirement. Everyone!!!”

        Everyone ????? Is lying in your DNA or does stupidity and greed blind you ?

        Quoting NJ Pl 78 (from the above link) ……

        “If you attained 25 years of service credit before July 1, 1997 or retired under an approved disability retirement before August 1, 1997, there is no cost to you for any plan.”
        ———————————————————————————————
        There are also several OTHER long service categories of workers with listed premiums, FAR lower than your 35% proclamation.

        e.g., State employee AETNA Freedom 10 Family (non-Medicare) monthly premium of $176.77 for the category:

        “25 YEARS OF PENSION SERVICE ATTAINED FROM JULY 1, 1997 THROUGH JUNE 30, 2000 OR RETIRED ON A DISABILITY RETIREMENT FROM AUGUST 1, 1997 THROUGH JULY 31, 2000”

        That $176.77 monthly isn’t 35% of the $2,848.68 total cost of that Plan (from my prior comment), but only 6.2%.
        ————————————————————-

        Greedy little man.

        Reply

        • Posted by BH on April 20, 2015 at 7:44 pm

          Wrong!! If you had 20 years or more at the enactment of the law in 2011, you were grandfathered in!! Everyone….EVERYONE ELSE PAYS!!! 35%!!!
          http://www.state.nj.us/treasury/pensions/reform-hb-qa.shtml

          Trying too skew it with disability pensions is unfair. That’s not the norm.
          But you will twist anything to agree with your ideals.

          Reply

          • Posted by Tough Love on April 20, 2015 at 7:57 pm

            So all of a sudden ..”EVERYBODY!!!” (quoting from your comment above) …. becomes “EVERYONE ELSE PAYS!!!”

            So when we CATCH YOU lying, you fess-up by making believe you said something else ?
            —————————–

            Greedy little man.

  21. Posted by Tough Love on April 20, 2015 at 6:10 pm

    Oh I bet S. Moderation Douglas is going to be soooooo disappointed.

    Reply

  22. Posted by S Moderation Douglas on April 20, 2015 at 7:01 pm

    Moderation is copacetic.

    “They’re paying $5,000 of $31,500 ….I mean, that’s on average…”

    That there is CC, or TL type truth.

    Moderation: The average policy is nowhere near that high.

    CC truth: I was talking about retiree healthcare (he did not say that)

    Moderation: Retiree healthcare average is nowhere near that high.

    CC truth: I was talking about retiree FAMILY coverage (didn’t say that, either)

    Moderation: Average retiree family coverage isn’t that high either.

    CC truth: I was talking about average retiree family healthcare not covered by medicare.

    Moderation: Of course. I’m sure that’s what everyone understood.
    …………………..
    Thanks for the link, anonymous.
    “close to the truth.” Is better than CC ever did.

    In the meantime, average premiums for individuals is about $10,000, and average for families is $18,700, of which the employee pays $4,000.

    That’s “closer to the truth”.

    Reply

    • Posted by Tough Love on April 20, 2015 at 7:40 pm

      And that $18,700 “average” is likely for BOTH “actives” and “retirees” combined, and hence far lower than what the average must be for the older/sicker workers in the “retiree” group ……………… which is where (along with the grossly excessive pensions) NJ’s financial Problems lie.

      Reply

  23. Why i s there family coverage in retirement? If someone is young enough to retire with minor children then they are too young to retire. That is the most ridiculous thing I have read yet.

    Reply

    • Posted by Tough Love on April 20, 2015 at 7:47 pm

      Tell that to the Police, ROUTINELY retiring in their 50s….. and costing NJ’s Taxpayers a fortune in retiree healthcare costs ….. likely $30K-$35K annually (per my quoted premiums above from NJ PL 78).

      When you can collect 65+% of your final pay with no healthcare premiums (and likely with COLA increases to be restored) it makes great financial sense to retire …. whether you do something else or not. Andas you alluded to, the ROOT CAUSE of the problem is that such a generous (full/unreduced) pension is available at such a ridiculously young age.

      Reply

    • Posted by S Moderation Douglas on April 21, 2015 at 2:34 am

      Last I heard, NJ state police have mandatory retirement at 55, and children can be carried up to age 26. So there would be some retired families.

      Reply

      • Posted by Tough Love on April 21, 2015 at 12:05 pm

        S. Moderation Douglas,

        As usual you are wrong. There is no mandatory Police retirement at age 55.

        Reply

    • Posted by S Moderation Douglas on April 21, 2015 at 4:14 pm

      http://www.njsp.org/recruit/salary.html

      “Everyone in the State Police must retire by age 55 except the Superintendent.”

      Reply

      • Posted by Tough Love on April 21, 2015 at 5:45 pm

        You are correct….. and I was wrong.

        I was thinking of our Local Police Officers, some of whom I know work beyond age 55.

        Reply

  24. Posted by S Moderation Douglas on April 20, 2015 at 9:36 pm

    Healthcare in NJ is expensive. We get it. You can argue till the cows come home about how much it is or should be, but $31,500…….ON AVERAGE…….is a bald faced lie. Not even close to credible. For starters, typically, 40 percent of state workers are unmarried. Family healthcare is irrelevant.

    You’re arguing about what is or should be, I’m simply asking way Christie feels compelled to lie about it. It’s a big lie and he repeats it often. Must be some kind of quote that applies here.

    Reply

  25. Would someone clarify—-public employees pay a % of thier salaries towards the healthcare not a % of the premiums?? Supposedly the % of salary paid in goes up a little each year.

    Reply

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